Sturdier front part for Lehner Motors

[Sigge]

Here are two pictures of how one can make the frontal part of the Lehner motors more sturdier and with much stronger, larger bearings.
Sold by MHZ in Germany.

The original LMT front part is in purple.



http://w1.877.telia.com/~u87744638/LMT/DSC00070.jpg



http://w1.877.telia.com/~u87744638/LMT/DSC00071.jpg

[brooks93]

any idea on the cost and how I can get some

[Sigge]

I only know that MHZ has them.
www.mhz-engines.com

and that they weigh 26g instead of the normal 11g that the original front part weigh.


I will email them and check the prices.



Sigge

[Eagle]

Mabee im wrong but loading the shaft axially will load both bearings far too much... what about the back bearing, any replacments for that?

[Don Wollard]

Originally posted by Eagle
Mabee im wrong but loading the shaft axially will load both bearings far too much... what about the back bearing, any replacments for that?

A great idea - but just a bandaide.

You can't change out the top of a Lehner because of the way the motors are wound. So - you must only use the size of bearing which they come with.

Thx for the pic and idea, Sigge. The larger bearing is indeed needed. However larger bearing have much higher resistence and will also load the motor. Maybe a strudier end bell with the same size bearing (replacement bearing installed) - would be a better choice.

[Eagle]

Souns like the guys at lehner need to think again about the construction of their cans, because guys like you all ways find a way to blow em up!:D

[Andrewg]

Sigge

thanks for that

Don

you sure about your sudden about face on Lehner? Every machine ever made has limits and can be broken. Even million horsepower power station generators

SURELY you would prefer to tell us about the three motors u have on your site. I know one of them very well and it is well made in the style of most good brushless motors.

The way modellers here are using motors and controllers - I hear a heap about controllers being poor but i dont hear about them hurting brushless motors.

That suggests the damage levels for motors are extremely low - I never heard someone on this baord say their Lehner had fallen apart.

I think I am gonna go play with drill motors for a while LOL

[Turbosun]

Failure of 22 series Lehners prompted MHZ to redesign the front cap and bearing housing. Essentially many of these motors are used with flexshafts. The typical hydroprop would load/unload/load/unload the flexshaft because of it's partial submerged nature. This in combination to natural whipping effects would load the two springrings which preload the bearing and axially locate the rotor. This type of loading, it is speculated, generated the resonances which had led to failures and has led Lehner to void warranty claims if flexshafts are used.

Analysis by MHZ has indicated that using a sturdier bearing and a stronger cap, these radial loads can be absorbed successfully.

By the way, Don, the bearing losses with a larger bearing are not increased. In fact most probably, with the lower bearing ball speeds, the losses are decreased. Certainly wear is decreased with lower rotational speeds of the balls in the bearing....

Also not sure Don why you say the tops of the Lehners cannot be exchanged because of the way they were wound??? It has been done. Very simple operation.

[brooks93]

Turbosun can you import these caps?

[Sigge]

Price is around 20 Euros.

/Sigge


Originally posted by Sigge
I only know that MHZ has them.
www.mhz-engines.com

and that they weigh 26g instead of the normal 11g that the original front part weigh.


I will email them and check the prices.



Sigge

[Sigge]

Don -
it is a strong bandaide then :-)

As it is a stronger ball bearing it will take up much of the axial load so the rear ball bearing will have less load on it. This will create a stronger motor unit!

The max usable rpm will be lower with a large ball bearing. For nomal users this is no problem.


Sigurd

Originally posted by Don Wollard
A great idea - but just a bandaide.

You can't change out the top of a Lehner because of the way the motors are wound. So - you must only use the size of bearing which they come with.

Thx for the pic and idea, Sigge. The larger bearing is indeed needed. However larger bearing have much higher resistence and will also load the motor. Maybe a strudier end bell with the same size bearing (replacement bearing installed) - would be a better choice.

[JfromJAGs]

The reason why the power boat guys in germany broke the 22 series motors is because they use bad flex couplers and flex shafts. Unbalanced and not mounted straight. This creates enourmous vibrations and kills the BB's after a a very short time.

I was told that in some cases the vibrations were so bad that the whole rotor began to oscilate, hitting the windings. I have'nt seen it myself, but from what I have seen in this kind of power boat I have no doubt that it is true.

Instead of understanding their problem they try to make the BB'S stronger. But this will only shift the problem a few minutes further away. I does'nt solve the problem itself.

This is brute force logic: ok, I broke something - well, I don't want to think about why it happened, I just make it stronger and we'll see how long it will last.

Joerg

[Andrewg]

Joerg

do u know if the connectors were flex hexes - some of the f-h's i have recieved have had very poor balance and the vibration they cause is significant.

[Zippifried]

Just balance 'em!!! :) LOL Balancing one of the new wire drive ones could be fun on a Topflight, etc. Would need an attachment for the "small end" and a cut "big end" though.... :) I'd guess the motor shaft set screw is the biggest cause of balance issues, but I haven't put a dial caliper up to one to see what else might be off yet.

[Andrewg]

Zippi

I have found i have had to grind quite a bit from them - from the bolt end the grub screw is the least of it

[JfromJAGs]

I have no idea what type of couplers they used exactly, but the main problem I found with all direct driven boats are couplers.

If the holes in the couplers are a tiny bit to wide, that is if you can put the coupler easiely on the shaft, then it won't be alligned right after you tightened the set screws.

Talking about stronger motor mounts is always a sign that something's wrong in this area.

Joerg

[Andrewg]

Joerg

thankyou much appreciated

[Turbosun]

Although Joerg's point is well taken, the following also needs to be considered in MHZ deciding to make a sturdier part.
Firstly, the OEM cap is only 2 mm thick aluminum. Not only is this somewhat thin for such a large motor, most importantly, it is trying to hold a 4 mm-thick ball-bearing casing. Additionally, the threads on the casing has a pitch of M4...Not too many threads to hold the entire thing in.
Add that to the warranty issues with Lehner (or the lack of it as soon as the motor is in a marine application), and voila...here is the reason d'etre....
Apparently, it does not take to much to access any of the many natural resonant frequencies a big rotor like that has. Although a true racer may tune it and shave as much weight until it breaks and then rebuild it without taking that last gram off...for most of us we would like to be kind of on the safe side.
Who would try to drive a car without a flywheel risking the motor to stall at any safe or unsafe moment? A racer would....Most of us wouldnt...

Of course a remedy like this with hugh balancing problems will just move the problem a few minutes away as Joerg has suggested...
And by the way, these caps have been selling briskly in Germany without any complaints sofar.....

[brooks93]

so can you get some of them?

[Turbosun]

yes I have some in a shipment departing Germany on Friday

[brooks93]

if you can hold me 2 till mid janurary I will take them

[Turbosun]

you got it...just remind me in Jan..should be here end next week...although with the holidays all my shipments from Germany have take two to three times as long :rolleyes:

[LOU]

Hi Turbosun, I would like 2 also please. How much are they.

Thanks
Lou

[Turbosun]

Should be around $28 +SH. SH for something small should be $5 or less. The euro is at an all time high of $1.25
:(

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

I'm not to sure why everyone is worrying about these front plates or motor failures. Other than Don has anyone else seen or heard of one of these Lehner motors going bad in the States? I know I have a bunch of them and push them WAY harder than most and haven't had one failure. To give you an example, XL5000 on 12 cells. Do the math, those bearings are getting a workout.

Paul.

[LOU]

Hey Paul, These plates are for the 22 series Lehners. I have a 2230 going into it 3rd year so $28 dollars is cheap insurance for a 300+ motor.

Also Turbosun you sure you don't want to edit this
By the way, Don, the bearing losses with a larger bearing are not increased. In fact most probably, with the lower bearing ball speeds, the losses are decreased. Certainly wear is decreased with lower rotational speeds of the balls in the bearing....

LOU

[Turbosun]

:doh:
I dont want to edit it...just wished i never blurted it out faster than my thoughts....

Anyhow, here are some couplers for flexshafts from MHZ which by design self align....THere are some who already use them and want more.....

comes for 5 mm motorshafts to either a 1/8" (SKU# 1035) or 3/16" (SKU# 1036) flexshaft.

For Power boaters there are couplers for 3/16" shafts and M6 (SKU# 1038) or M8 (SKU# 1022) engine shafts ($27)

Also for 1/4" flexshafts there are couplers M6 (SKU# 1037) or M8 (SKU# 1024) engine shafts ($30)

[Turbosun]

better pic under new thread.."better pic of coupler"...didnt mean to start a new thread...mea culpa..:rolleyes:

[Sanja Cowan]

just a question....has anybody to date had to replace the bearings on a 22 series lehner?????.....

[Ralf M.]

this front caps are making sense on lehner 2250 and 2280 series, especially the 2280.
this motor should be supportet too.

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/wbb2/attachment.php?attachmentid=1963&sid=57d2f2261a9f4e3d1eb67a41e886e47d

greets

[photohoward1]

I'm with paul. Has anyone had a problem?
Keep your driveline smooth and Balanced. This is true with any motor
or bushing or bearing.

If I am not mistaken the endbells on Hackers are Plastic and not one coplaint yet.

Don we would really like to know why the sour grapes?

[brooks93]

so if you ran these motors on a tranny you wouldn't have to worry about it at all

[Brian Vega]

I'm not to sure why everyone is worrying about these front plates or motor failures. Other than Don has anyone else seen or heard of one of these Lehner motors going bad in the States? I know I have a bunch of them and push them WAY harder than most and haven't had one failure. To give you an example, XL5000 on 12 cells. Do the math, those bearings are getting a workout. Ok Guys! I have sat back and watched this post develop and had to make some comments about Lehner Motors. As a racer who has used more than one Lehner motor from the 15 series to the 22 series I like to think that I am pretty well experienced when it comes to these motors... I have raced the same 20-30 Lehner motors over a 3 year period and I personally have had to replace the bearings in each motor at least once. I also like to think that I take care of my equipment better than most.. Mostly all of my boats are water free so its not like the water is the problem, Plus after every race I make sure I inspect all my motors and controllers for any evidence of wear and tear. As I have raced these same motors over a period of time I personally have noticed a decrease in there performance. After throwing Lots of cash at the problem like New cells, diffrent controllers etc. I have finally figured it out after extensive research! These motors after a period of time of being used over and over start to loose the power! Yes the power they used to produce no longer exists... I have discovered that the magnets start to loose the juice the used to have... Ask me how I know! Well after doing some testing with 2 boats, using the same cells same 2 motors that I have used for years and same controllers I replaced the armatures in the old motors and put 2 new armatures in the motors I picked up 6-8 mph! My method of testing this experiment was first aGPS and second a radar gun! So for the average guy who only plays in the back yard he wouldnt probably have the same issue, but after putting these motors through many races and pushing them to the brink like I do I was able to figure it out. I never thought a BL motor could decrease ite potential but it has hit me in the face and I am not saying all BL systems do this but I can tell you I have been doing the same test in other boats with these Lehners and am finding the same results! To each is own I guess.... Just my 2 pennies.. BV

[B.K. Foster]

Originally posted by Paul
Hello Guys,

I'm not to sure why everyone is worrying about these front plates or motor failures. Other than Don has anyone else seen or heard of one of these Lehner motors going bad in the States? I know I have a bunch of them and push them WAY harder than most and haven't had one failure. To give you an example, XL5000 on 12 cells. Do the math, those bearings are getting a workout.

Paul.

Going bad... Unfortunately, yes...

I have to admit, when I first got my Lehner motors they were wicked fast, but after a FULL season of running them (bear in mind we run year round down here in Texas)and starting another season, they have significantly dropped off. I had second guessed my cells, my driving, my chargers you name it...

Knowing what I know now, 2004 will not see a Lehner running in my boats. What does get under my skin is the fact that I know of at least two other racers who have identical setups as mine, because of the performance that the Lehners delivered for me when they were brand new.

As with any product there is an inherent amount of R&D in the process. Before release here in the States, the Lehner line went through a great deal of testing, figuring out what worked best for each application that we could utilize. Rather than focusing on the costs of doing so, which should be clear and evident as to how much Don and Donnie took on with the process of doing so, We should focus on the ongoing aspect of "in the field testing".

The 2003 racing season saw a great deal of FE boats with Lehner motors in them. Mine included. As the motors were put through the rigors of racing, several issues became evident. The same temperatures that a racing setup sees on the cells, motor, and controllers across all brands, have significantly different levels of degredation on the components. Where a Hacker or an Aveox can take the abuse for numerous seasons (a well proven fact), a Lehner cannot. The magnets do not tolerate heat as some of the other motors have. As the magnets heat up they lose their field and make the controllers work harder to maintain efficiency. Hmmm... smoked controllers... We've heard of this recently I believe.

Is it at all possible that the components have changed in them? Have the production processes changed?
Or are the motors simply falling off with prolonged use?

I know that there has been a great deal of debate and discussion over this line of motors. I also know that Don has taken an even greater amount of criticism over his choice to drop the Lehner line. Bottom line, the Wollard family spent a small fortune getting the motors and controllers here to test them, and further still to market to the FE community here in the states. That was a business decision which was intended to benefit US as racers and sport boaters. For whatever reason RRH is no longer selling the Lehner line should be a message to boaters and racers alike. If The quality and durability of (for example) a Crown Vic Interceptor were to significantly diminish (for whatever the reason), do you think that police departments would continue to purchase them? Or would we simply find a suitable level of performance and durability from another manufacturer?
I am not going to even consider warranty or service issues.

When all things are said and done, and upon preponderance of the totality of circumstances, and evidence.... I chose to call a spade a spade...

I cannot reason with myself to make this type of investment each season, when I can spend less and see the equipment last for 3-5 seasons... garnering a larger return on my investment in the way of my limited budget...

[Steve Vasdekis]

So what is being said here is that RRH and their racing team and others that claim are in the "know", knew about the problem with the motors and yet continued to sell the motors until they were sold out and the line was dropped and only then, made aware of the issues with the public? So if I am reading this correctly I have the right to get my money back because I was told that the only maintainance with these motors was to oil the bearings and maybe an occasional bearing replacement as long as I followed the specs. Or, maybe RRH will work out a deal with Lehner to correct the problem with a free upgraded rotor replacement? If these problems are true, the right thing should be done because everyone involved should stand behind what they sell or have sold or what they make.

[Romain]

Hi,

What I would like you to explain to me is why these problems of " lossing field" are introduced as concerning Lehner motors only!!??
I mean, if on the Brushed motor, the weakest point were the the brushes, may be, on the BL motors, the weakest point can be the rotor? Consequently, after a time, Hakcer, Kontronics, Lehner, Plet, aveox, MegaM etc... can suffer from the same problems, don't you think?

Thanks for things more clear for me.

[Paul]

Hey Guys,

All this makes for interesting reading but I gotta tell you, until I see more than a few guys having problems I'll continue to use Lehner motors. I also think the records set with Lehner motors speak for their self. Don't get me wrong though, I have other motors that I use as well including Hacker and Aveox. As a matter of fact Aveox is my ONLY choice for the P classes. I'm really hoping they come up with some bigger motors (at a reasonable cost) because I would love to do it with good old American horsepower. But until that time what else is out there?

Paul.

[B.K. Foster]

Originally posted by Romain
Hi,

What I would like you to explain to me is why these problems of " lossing field" are introduced as concerning Lehner motors only!!??
I mean, if on the Brushed motor, the weakest point were the the brushes, may be, on the BL motors, the weakest point can be the rotor? Consequently, after a time, Hakcer, Kontronics, Lehner, Plet, aveox, MegaM etc... can suffer from the same problems, don't you think?

Thanks for things more clear for me.

You must have missed the part where I said that the other motors suffer from the same degradation but over a longer period of time.... 3-5 seasons...

No Steve, Honestly, I figured that you'd come at it from that angle... :D There are quite a few boxes sitting in the shop of Lehner motors that are brand new. But thanks for playing....

[Brian Vega]

Steve Vasdekis So what is being said here is that RRH and their racing team and others that claim are in the "know", knew about the problem with the motors and yet continued to sell the motors until they were sold out and the line was dropped and only then, made aware of the issues with the public? So if I am reading this correctly I have the right to get my money back because I was told that the only maintainance with these motors was to oil the bearings and maybe an occasional bearing replacement as long as I followed the specs. Or, maybe RRH will work out a deal with Lehner to correct the problem with a free upgraded rotor replacement? If these problems are true, the right thing should be done because everyone involved should stand behind what they sell or have sold or what they make.


I Dont believe I knew anything Vasdekis if you read my post correctly I stated that I have recently found issues with Lehner motors losing power. Did I ever say I or we RRH knew about these issues before???? I stated that after doing my own testing I found this to be true with the Motors I HAVE... I did not say anyting about RRH.... Paul, You may not ever notice any issues with your motors! I was just giving my experiences with Lehner motors... Bye the way - I speak for MY SELF and from Experience... YOU DIG

[Sanja Cowan]

i recently purchased a 2240/10 from a distributor & had asked about warranty & reliability,etc.It was clearly stated that there is a 2 year manufacturer warranty as long as it is not crushed or rusted.It was also clearly stated that only 1 has returned for bearing failure,but it was due to heavy impact(aircraft application)As far as a coupler goes,it does not void the warranty.Here I previously had asked a question regarding bearing replacement and it seems to have had minimal replies, which tells me there has not been many replacements under fair to heavy use.....cheers!

[Don Wollard]

Gents –

Let’s keep everyone and this thread on the same page. I believe this thread directed an upgrade for the Lehner 22 series motors. This was an improvement which a third party vendor offers. Lehner motors do not offer this type of upgrade and in fact does NOT acknowledge any such problem.

Indeed – dealers who represent any Mfgr are responsible only to the extent of the warranty offered by the Mfgr. Issues which a dealer makes claim to which are not part of the warranty program by the Mfgr is the responsibility of that dealer. Is it important to know the difference?

This BL Motors forum was placed on the RRR Board specifically to discuss and direct the proper operation of Brushless Motors. More often than not – user error causes many times more problems than mfgr defects. How would anyone know all the operating options of any product unless you had reference to the Mfgr Instructions or someone with experience?

What’s the difference? In extreme situations, brushed motors that fail tend to fail immediately. Brushless Motors that fail; have a tendency of failing over time unless the windings are penetrated (broken). So what causes these failures mentioned in this thread (and others) and why?

The correct answers are not a slam on any product as much as they are for better understanding how to properly use your investment (motor). In the event someone does not tell you … how would you know?

This past year when I could not get the answers to my questions I went on a quest to find out. I sought out English speaking experts (engineers and college professors) who could test motors and give me ‘the right answers’. Most of the results are NOT surprising. Basically – 90% of the failures I identified have been as a result of user error and not product failure. However this conclusion is based on different Mfgr’s claims for proper use of there product as oppose to what the actual failure was. For boat guys this is significant because many hobbyists do not take the time and read or compare products – instead, they just reply on word of mouth or what a dealer tells them. In fact – operating parameters of some BL Motors and related products are much different than others … to a significant degree. What I am saying here is ….Not all BL motors are alike and will not operate the same.

Question. Would more information regarding the proper use and operating parameters of BL motors and equipment be helpful? This type of discussion would involve identifying what fails and why? In some cases – product failure is an issue with a product so identifying the failed product would be involved. Indeed …. This same type of discussion has occurred many times over the past few years on the RRR Brushed motors forum and would be a natural next step for THIS BL motor forum.

[Kmot]

Don, I gotta give you a lot of credit for keeping your cool. I don't know how you do it.............

[Doug Forrester]

Remember, this is RACING we're talking about.

If you took your Vette to the drag strip and proceeded to rev it to 9 grand and then dropped the clutch, how much of your warranty do you think that GM would honor?:D

[Steven Vaccaro]

Doug I have warranty clutch repairs ships to prove that gm stands behind their product within reason during the warranty period. As a matter of fact when the ZR1 was introduced in the early 1990's I beat up on it at the dragway with a stock 6speed vette. The guy complained to GM and they sent a rep with a computer to figure out the problem! Turned out to be the plastic intake from the throttle body to the filter was being squeezed shut during full throttle take off's restricting the air intake.

I see it this way, If there was a need to make a replacement front bearing, someone besides Don must have had problems. And I'm sure it wasn't one or two problems.

[eddieh]

Originally posted by Steve Vasdekis
So what is being said here is that RRH and their racing team and others that claim are in the "know", knew about the problem with the motors and yet continued to sell the motors until they were sold out and the line was dropped and only then, made aware of the issues with the public? So if I am reading this correctly I have the right to get my money back because I was told that the only maintainance with these motors was to oil the bearings and maybe an occasional bearing replacement as long as I followed the specs. Or, maybe RRH will work out a deal with Lehner to correct the problem with a free upgraded rotor replacement? If these problems are true, the right thing should be done because everyone involved should stand behind what they sell or have sold or what they make.


Steve these are interesting comments, I don't normally post to brushless topics as i don't run them. from the outside this looks like a pretty wild accusation, but it could be looked at in another way, I deal with manufacturers on a daily basis, I buy equpment that is suppose to meet certain specs, it sometimes happens that items are discovered not to be fully up to spec once hard usage is put to it, when a vendor or Mfg goes into a deal to supply a widget, for x amount of dollars, he will state the warranty period, we agree to purchase x amount at y amount of dollars, and things that will void the warranty, now if we start to get failures we will address this issue with the vendor, more often then not the vendor will try to reach a remedy, if he acts in good faith we will generally continue to purchase more as suppliers are few for some specialized equipment , however if it continues we will be leary about purchasing more, and only the bare minimum to meet our operational requirements until the solution is worked out and if the vendor doesn't live up to the terms of the contract he usually gets denied any future contracts, and legal proceedings are started, we do not discuss any of the evidence or conditions while this is going on, and it often takes a long time sometimes years to rectify. if the vendor says that he will make good, and these failures are do to misuse by the racers, you would believe them, I mean it is natural if you are pushing the envelope as hard as you can, you expect some failures, but if you start to notice an increasing amount of failures, and in more then one product what are you going to do? continue or end the relationship? what if you sent back 40 controllers and are waiting for warranty repairs...and then you are told that they are not going to be repaired? continue or end the relationship. The thing is also if you have promoted a product and truly believed in that product and the vendor acts in good faith you will try to support him, especially if he is telling you problems have been fixed it isn't the motor it is the user etc, and if the vendor doesn't honor his committment what do you do, stay quiet, or check the size of your ball bearings and let folks know the truth of what has been going on? another point is how many lehners were sold a year or two ago, I have never heard of lehner before I came to this forum 2 years ago maybe the service was good , when your dealing with a relatively few motors you don't mind biting the bullet when you know that sales are increasing, but as popularity increased, more motors are sold, and more motors pushed to the limit and then the MFG cannot keep up with his commitments. you are right the mfg should honor his obligations, he wasn't doing that so the vendor ended his relationship with him, what legal proceedings are ongoing I don't know, but the fact that an outside company has come up with a spare part for a motor that is not their own speaks volumes, and the fact that Don has brought up a failure that has occured, has offered advice on some solutions, is not sour grapes, it tells me Don has some big ball bearings...heck if another manufacturer is offering an off the shelf fix to repair the prtoblem isn't that saying something?? The machining of those items costs some money, you don't invest in that unless there is a market... and to sell a piece at that price means that they were bought in some quantity, sooo that also tells me a lot, anyway I thought i would add my cup of gas to this fire, as I said before Don isn't slamming the product he is offering his expert opinion out of real life testing.... Don said the motors were good, but needed some improvements to be better... a completely different manufacturer came out with a solution for the same problems don has mentioned....

I dunno I love this place and maybe I am biased but it seems like everytime someone mentions something about lehner, people are all over you like a rat on a cheetoh.. I dunno....

:shrug:

for the record This is also My opinion and mine alone.. the above scenario is just that a scenario I have no knowledge of what is/was going on, it is just what i think makes sense...


cheers eddie

[Sigge]

Bryan -
you race so many races that I do not think anyone else races this much. I take your info seriously and I understand that you are disappointed.

Now, the performance degrades you say. Let say this is the fact.
How can we say/proove that to the mfg?
What product specification has been broken. What I mean is that we do not have ANY spec that says that we should have 85% efficiency for XX years at this and that current and Voltage.
And how many can measure the efficiency???
So we are f*#ed, right?

A broken ball bearing can be proven and shown, but performance degradation is so hard to proove.

It is like having a car and say: "I am not having full power from my V8 anymore - I want a new V8 motor !".



Sigge

[Sigge]

Don -
I see your point.

What I see is that MHZ is selling is a part that can be used by those that operate a Lehner motor outside its specification, ie
if one wants to use a flex shaft,
then a MHZ front part might help you save the motor.

Actually,
there is
NO SPECIFICATION
from Lehner
or ANY other producer of motors!!!

For ex
* how much radial force can the shaft take?
* how much axial force can the shaft take?
* how about minimal force that any ball bearing needs to work within ITS spec?
* how will the power degrade with temp and load
* what is the efficiency for any given motor?
* how shall the motor be attached to the hull for the motor to be within its spec?
* vibrations / shock / G-forces???
(car use for ex)
* how much current can a motor handle without degradation, and what are the degradations?

and so on and so on....

I have written some specification for military and telecommunications companies,
and our specs are so detailed that the specs can be like a thick book!!!

Anyone seen a detaied spec sheet for a motor?
Please show it to us.
Thanks.


Sigge

I believe this thread directed an upgrade for the Lehner 22 series motors. This was an improvement which a third party vendor offers. Lehner motors do not offer this type of upgrade and in fact does NOT acknowledge any such problem.:(

[Sigge]

Eddieh - you sure do hit the nail where it shall be hit.
A business point of view. Good.

If you want to buy a product, your responsibility is to read the specification and when you approve that spec, you pay for the product.
Then, when the product do not comply with that spec, you complain to the manufacturer, and if the mfg agrees that the product is not within that spec, he should fix the problem.

I think in this Lehner case, the mfg and the buyer do not agree.
And to me the problem originates in the fact that there is no
REAL specification on the product.
If there was a good spec, there would be no problem. IMHO.

This happens so often in many fields of products.

One thing I do know, is that Lehner is still selling lots and lots of motor to all over the world. He can hardly keep up with all the orders....
As of last weeks talk with Lehner.



Sigge



Originally posted by Eddieh
Steve these are interesting comments, I don't normally post to brushless topics as i don't run them. from the outside this looks like a pretty wild accusation, but it could be looked at in another way, I deal with manufacturers on a daily basis, I buy equpment that is suppose to meet certain specs, it sometimes happens that items are discovered not to be fully up to spec once hard usage is put to it, when a vendor or Mfg goes into a deal to supply a widget, for x amount of dollars, he will state the warranty period, we agree to purchase x amount at y amount of dollars, and things that will void the warranty, now if we start to get failures we will address this issue with the vendor, more often then not the vendor will try to reach a remedy, if he acts in good faith we will generally continue to purchase more as suppliers are few for some specialized equipment , however if it continues we will be leary about purchasing more, and only the bare minimum to meet our operational requirements until the solution is worked out and if the vendor doesn't live up to the terms of the contract he usually gets denied any future contracts, and legal proceedings are started, we do not discuss any of the evidence or conditions while this is going on, and it often takes a long time sometimes years to rectify. if the vendor says that he will make good, and these failures are do to misuse by the racers, you would believe them, I mean it is natural if you are pushing the envelope as hard as you can, you expect some failures, but if you start to notice an increasing amount of failures, and in more then one product what are you going to do? continue or end the relationship? what if you sent back 40 controllers and are waiting for warranty repairs...and then you are told that they are not going to be repaired? continue or end the relationship. The thing is also if you have promoted a product and truly believed in that product and the vendor acts in good faith you will try to support him, especially if he is telling you problems have been fixed it isn't the motor it is the user etc, and if the vendor doesn't honor his committment what do you do, stay quiet, or check the size of your ball bearings and let folks know the truth of what has been going on? another point is how many lehners were sold a year or two ago, I have never heard of lehner before I came to this forum 2 years ago maybe the service was good , when your dealing with a relatively few motors you don't mind biting the bullet when you know that sales are increasing, but as popularity increased, more motors are sold, and more motors pushed to the limit and then the MFG cannot keep up with his commitments. you are right the mfg should honor his obligations, he wasn't doing that so the vendor ended his relationship with him, what legal proceedings are ongoing I don't know, but the fact that an outside company has come up with a spare part for a motor that is not their own speaks volumes, and the fact that Don has brought up a failure that has occured, has offered advice on some solutions, is not sour grapes, it tells me Don has some big ball bearings...heck if another manufacturer is offering an off the shelf fix to repair the prtoblem isn't that saying something?? The machining of those items costs some money, you don't invest in that unless there is a market... and to sell a piece at that price means that they were bought in some quantity, sooo that also tells me a lot, anyway I thought i would add my cup of gas to this fire, as I said before Don isn't slamming the product he is offering his expert opinion out of real life testing.... Don said the motors were good, but needed some improvements to be better... a completely different manufacturer came out with a solution for the same problems don has mentioned....

I dunno I love this place and maybe I am biased but it seems like everytime someone mentions something about lehner, people are all over you like a rat on a cheetoh.. I dunno....

:shrug:

for the record This is also My opinion and mine alone.. the above scenario is just that a scenario I have no knowledge of what is/was going on, it is just what i think makes sense...


cheers eddie

[Zippifried]

In actuality, Neo magnets have different temperature ratings. I have searched a bit about this. I have found that NdFeB (neo) magnets of lesser temperature rating are cheaper.

In reading through posts on this thread, I wonder- are the cheaper / less temperature resistive neodynium magnets used in Lehner motors? It's entirely possible, and I truly don't know if they are or not.

Steve V, man, what a post. Slamming the Sadaam capture in Off Topic, and not more than two weeks later, you're spouting about rights fostered by Americanized capitalistic manerisms that defend your point of view.... Wow. Very "capitalistic" of you. You're American, after all!!! What's next, a class-action lawsuit?LMAO Lighten up, love this country, or get out. :) I agree with you on a few other topics, but all of this is too much.

I don't think there was any conspiracy, that anyone "hid" anything from anyone else. If YOU had a handful of motors going south under racing conditions, and was unable to resolve whatever issues were causing it, what would or could YOU do? What when customers reported the same problems? What when the manufacturer wouldn't back their own products? It goes on and on.... How many failures would it take to prove to yourself that it was the product, not how it was being used (with the manufacturer well aware of the intended use), that was in failure?

Sigge, Wonderful, Great, glad to hear that other folks are not having such problems! :) Maybe the Lehners just get demagnetized while traveling via cargo ship to the US (something to do with those large iron and steel hulls or crossing the prime meridian in leiu of the earth's magnetic field, who freakin' knows).

In America, there is a certain expectation of product performance. If a product does not perform adequately (reliability first and foremost), it gets a bad reputation. Regardless of posted specs, regardless of anything else. I recently had a Maxtor hard drive fail within a year of purchase. Does this mean all Maxtor hard drives are bad? No, not necessarily. But, I will gladly share that fact, and let others know that my hard drive failed in less than a year, if only to educate others that it is a real and true fact that such can happen. Will other users attack me personally for saying so? Who knows, who cares, if I can let someone else know what happened in my situtation, I've done what I can. What was MY expectation? Simply that the failed hard drive should have lasted throughout the warranty period faithfully. A huge amount of research is performed with other technologies to determine failure rates. The failure rate / MTBF of any product should be clearly specified for such products, including BL motors that cost as much as they do.

IMHO, it's a sad day when a product doesn't perform as anticipated. If a product needs "improvements" for reliability's sake (such as a stronger cap on the end of the shaft side of the motor as was posted), they shoudn't be in the form of after-market add-ons. Such improvements should be offered by the MANUFACTURER, recognizing deficiencies of their product for specific applications, or at least a disclaimer for such applications where such an add-on would be suggested and / or necessary.

Having not read any such documentation regarding Lehner motor usage, what DOES the documentation say? :)

For those that have had no problems, Paul P, Howard, etc, how about some details? What, honestly, have you done with these motors up to now? Even in those "well, let's see what THIS does" moments...? Share some information.

Take Care,
Paul

[B.K. Foster]

Originally posted by Sigge
Bryan -
you race so many races that I do not think anyone else races this much. I take your info seriously and I understand that you are disappointed.

Now, the performance degrades you say. Let say this is the fact.
How can we say/proove that to the mfg?
What product specification has been broken. What I mean is that we do not have ANY spec that says that we should have 85% efficiency for XX years at this and that current and Voltage.
And how many can measure the efficiency???
So we are f*#ed, right?

A broken ball bearing can be proven and shown, but performance degradation is so hard to proove.

It is like having a car and say: "I am not having full power from my V8 anymore - I want a new V8 motor !".



Sigge

Since I do not own an oscilloscope I can only make comparative evaluations based on lap times and temperatures of my components. However having a known such as average times for a heat, a motor can easily be setup in a test platform and run up for an extended duration under load. The manufacturer could monitor and record either by electronic means or print out the performance of the product over a duration of time and notice as to whether at a given time or average across several motors, as to whether the product starts to fall off. With this information compared to other comparable products, a clear determination could be made as to whether field observations are the norm for the product, or random failures. How many random failures does it take before they cease to be random, and become common occurence?

[Zippifried]

Originally posted by B.K. Foster
Since I do not own an oscilloscope I can only make comparative evaluations based on lap times and temperatures of my components. However having a know such as average times for a heat, a motor can easily be setup in a test platform and run up for an extended duration under load. The manufacturer could monitor and record either by electronic means or print out the performance of the product over a duration of time and notice as to whether at a given time or average across several motors, as to whether the product starts to fall off. With this information compared to other comparable products, a clear determination could be made as to whether field observations are the norm for the product, or random failures. How many random failures does it take before they cease to be random, and become common occurence?

Hmmmm....... Sounds strangely familiar to my post..... LOL :)

[Don Wollard]

Originally posted by Zippifried
In actuality, Neo magnets have different temperature ratings. I have searched a bit about this. I have found that NdFeB (neo) magnets of lesser temperature rating are cheaper.

In reading through posts on this thread, I wonder- are the cheaper / less temperature resistive neodynium magnets used in Lehner motors? It's entirely possible, and I truly don't know if they are or not.

There we go! Thanks for noting these difference, Paul.

In another thread I posted reference to the rotors used in Lehner Motors and why they are different from most of the ‘other’ BL motors made in the world. I did have them tested by experts in this field in laboratory conditions.

Lehner uses what is termed 'segmented' magnets. This is simply a group of small magnet disc glued together on a shaft. The magnets mounted on shaft are termed a 'rotor'. Lehners style of rotor was an innovation because the magnetic flux of the motor is contained in a way which gives the motor better mid range operation.

With that said - its important to understand that one brand of motor would be better for mid range operation and another brand may be better for high end operation because of the design of the rotor and the winding style. If you do not know this – you might be mislead and purchase the wrong motor for your intended use.

As Paul noted a very important issue with Neo magnets and the operation of any electric motor which contains then?

Neo magnets are by nature (1) soft and (2) have very limited heat ranges depending on how the magnets are formulated. There are over 300 patents for Neo Magnets in the US, alone. There is a HUGE difference with how Neo magnets are made. Small changes in the compound mixture have dramatic changes in how these magnets perform. Paul also noted that cheap magnets are substantially different than quality magnets. High quality Neo magnets can cost upward of 500% more than low quality comparables. It appears that the higher quality Neo magnets have a very low Iron content.

Neo compounds used in typical RC type BL motors are very porous. Which means if not protected from heat or elements - you might see your motor’s out put change. These changes can be dramatic if your rotor has high iron content and subsequently gets wet. Oxidation in itself will cause a chemical reaction in a Neo based rotor in the event the rotor is subsequently heated - typically over 120 degrees.

It’s best for model boaters to have rotors (in BL Motors) which are coated or plated to prevent these changes from occurring, in the first place. In another thread - I explained this. Lehner rotors are NOT plated like Hacker, Kontronic, etc. In fact - last year many of us observed that most (not all) of the Lehner rotors are no longer coated at all. This poses a potential problem for the integrity of your motor if you a rotor which is not plated. Plated rotors do several very important things which include (a) protect the integrity of the magnet from both heat and elements (b) Protect the motor windings from broken or splintered magnet parts penetrating the windings and (3) are easier to balance and keep balanced under high load / high RPM's.

The subject matter of this thread again is – protecting the integrity of your Lehner motor. The improvements offered above could be a significant improvement for those of you who use your large Lehner motors in heavy load situations.

Would it help to discuss other preventative measures for users of Lehners motors that run/race under heavy loads or outside the Mfgr’s recommended uses?

[Sigge]

Good idea. Send that degraded motor to Lehner and tell him to make a motor measurement (motor diagram aka dyno test) and then you can refer to that measurement and say that this motor has degraded and you want the motor repaired.



Sigge

Originally posted by B.K. Foster
Since I do not own an oscilloscope I can only make comparative evaluations based on lap times and temperatures of my components. However having a know such as average times for a heat, a motor can easily be setup in a test platform and run up for an extended duration under load. The manufacturer could monitor and record either by electronic means or print out the performance of the product over a duration of time and notice as to whether at a given time or average across several motors, as to whether the product starts to fall off. With this information compared to other comparable products, a clear determination could be made as to whether field observations are the norm for the product, or random failures. How many random failures does it take before they cease to be random, and become common occurence?

[Ralf M.]

my question:
the motor is degrading, but why?

is there a chance, to prevent this?

[eddieh]

Originally posted by Ralf M.
my question:
the motor is degrading, but why?

is there a chance, to prevent this?

Ralf, first I know nothing about brushless.... but from reading a few threads there seems to be two or three main concerns...
the motors seem to be degrading due to heat.... a better quality magnet seems to be the consensus, and this will need to be taken up with the MFG, I think motors that are used for aircraft do not have the constant varying of stress on them the load seems to be constant and when increased it is a steady increase, interesting that Andrew brought up the point about FAI type flying which is probably closer to what we do, with a lot of diving climbing etc, this will add considerably to load/heat, perhaps bigger better cooling sleeves would be better? but the difference seems to be with brushless the magnets are on the inside and from what I see there is little chance for the air to get in, I wonder if it would be possible to "unseal" the ends ie slots to let air pass through?

the second thing seems to be vibrations
it also seems that whipping of flex cables, very fast changes to loads have an effect not only on the motors but also the esc, there isn't that can be done about that, it is one of the reasons and outrunner motor seems to be very interesting as the can spins it acts as a flywheel, and dampens very fast accelerations and decelerations and the fix seems to be mechanical as opposed to electrical... again a better quality magnet/rotor, but this would need to be addressed with the mfg....


The last thing I am seeing is corrosion... and cheap components..
Don has mentioned the fact regarding replacement of the bearings, I can attest to the fact of buying quality bearings, I had an outdrive on my b-24, I just placed upgraded bearings in the boat tested it once, and then the boat got sold the day after.. well when the boat arrived even though the bearings were greased, there was corrosion within a day or so... sealed stainless baearings seem to be the cure, this fault can only be increased when you go from brushed rpms up into the super high brushless range,
the cure seems to be a better bearing..
I will leave it to the experts to chime in, these thoughts are what I was thinking while reading these threads again, I wish to stress the caveat that I have never run a brushless... this is what I have gleened from reading these threads...
:)

[Turbosun]

First of all, I think that the "consenus" that Lehner has cheaper magnets and the performance degrades in time as a result of heat has only been inferred from one anecdotal report. I guess when you are the King of the forest, you can expect more heat....no pun intended....However, the underlying discussions here are starting to sound like an impending lynch party......

Please remember, Lehner is making a living from this. He has allowed the electric-powered boats to rule the ponds. Without Lehner, there would be no electric world record faster than any other gas or nitro RC boat. He owes some thanks. I do know he gets paid for this stuff. However, it would be a heck of a lot more lucrative and easier for him to make motors for industrial and normal consumer applications where the users remain within the operating parameters specified. I am sure he, as no other, is continuing to be interested in providing the best there is to us. It really is not very helpful for this thread to go from someone finding info on the web on NdFeB (neo) magnets to someone nailing Lehner for using these cheap magnets without any proof whatsoever...........

I think this FE community would be a heck of a lot worse off if Lehner would quit supplying the FE boat community.

Discussions are meant to push the envelope. However, when you start making destructive conclusions and using powerful words like "consensus" which may affect someone's bread, I hope everyone will be responsible. More responsible than I have seen some in this thread....

treat others as you would like to be treated........

[Sigge]

Lehner
DO sells to the industry, too.

That is why he has a ISO 9002 quality certificate.
How many BL motor manufacturers can boast with this kind of certifikate?

Turbosun - great post!
Lehner sure do needs to be recognised as the best BL motor mfg when it comes to boat records.
http://home.t-online.de/home/lehner-motoren/l00index.htm




Hat of to mr Lehner!

[Turbosun]

Sigge,
This is exactly what I mean...It would be so easy to turn away from FE...Not too much money in it for him anyhow....

[eddieh]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Turbosun
[B]First of all, I think that the "consenus" that Lehner has cheaper magnets and the performance degrades in time as a result of heat has only been inferred from one anecdotal report. I guess when you are the King of the forest, you can expect more heat....no pun intended....However, the underlying discussions here are starting to sound like an impending lynch party......[QUOTE]

Hey Man Read the caveat... But as king of the forest let me go out on a limb... (pun intended) Maybe the word consensus was strong, my apologies , maybe "one line of thinking" is better
but on the other hand
I am not the one announcing new and improved front bearings,
I guess these were made to rope in unsuspecting brushless buyers? I think not... but I will Try to make my caveat a little clearer I AM ONLY GOING BY WHAT I HAVE READ HERE,I DO NOT RUN BRUSHLESS... but speaking of lynching everytime the person who probably has the most experience running lehners offers some useful observations, he is accussed of dissing the product completely, which is untrue , I haven't read you have to do this or that.. or don't buy em etc...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Turbosun
[B]Please remember, Lehner is making a living from this. He has allowed the electric-powered boats to rule the ponds. Without Lehner, there would be no electric world record faster than any other gas or nitro RC boat. He owes some thanks. I do know he gets paid for this stuff. However, it would be a heck of a lot more lucrative and easier for him to make motors for industrial and normal consumer applications where the users remain within the operating parameters specified.[QUOTE]

Turbo agreed, and as others have said there haven't been that many failures... but where did I read about possible bearing problems first? Right here, then next thing I am reading is MHZ make a stronger front end. sometimes where there is smoke there is fire and I think if you want to stay on top as a manufacturer , then you have a duty to improve the product or it won't be there on top next year...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Turbosun
[B] I am sure he, as no other, is continuing to be interested in providing the best there is to us. It really is not very helpful for this thread to go from someone finding info on the web on NdFeB (neo) magnets to someone nailing Lehner for using these cheap magnets without any proof whatsoever....[QUOTE]

Turbo, this isn't a discussion of how hard lehner is supporting the fe world, the records do speak for themselves, as well as his committment to servicing and warrantying the equipment he has already sold, but your right there should be proof,
This was a discussion where one of the top users of lehners was offering considerable expertise on some things to do to improve the motor, that's all.. I was also offering my Opinion, and nothing more... THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY......

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Turbosun
[B]I think this FE community would be a heck of a lot worse off if Lehner would quit supplying the FE boat community.....[QUOTE]

Agreed, the more vendors the better, and everyone will have their favorites, just like chevy versus ford, audi versus benz etc
this can be said for a lot of people, Christian Lucas, Don Wollard, Ken Joye, Randy, yourself, etc etc

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Turbosun
[B]Discussions are meant to push the envelope. However, when you start making destructive conclusions and using powerful words like "consensus" which may affect someone's bread, I hope everyone will be responsible. More responsible than I have seen some in this thread....treat others as you would like to be treated..[QUOTE]

As I said above consensus is a strong word, I was just offering my take on what I read in the threads,
I in no way way meant it as gospel how could I I don't even run brushless, I for one when I read somebody's comments always consider it their personal point of view, not etched in stone, it is up to me to sort through what is hard facts and what is conjecture, If my comments were taken as any more then my point of view, my apologies...

I do not believe anybody has made any irresonsible statements and stated these were facts, it was stated as in their experience.. I also believe as long as a company is offering the fastest most reliable equipment they won't have to worry whatever is said, all the bench testing etc is just data, there is no wrong or right there is just data,
the proof of the data comes out of racing and longevity, if nothing happens then this whole discussion is meaningless right?
but if there are failures, and there are things that can be done
to prevent those failures I would like to know,
I think we are all smart enough to wade through the hype and get to the facts I mean i am considering moving up to brushless I prefer to know everyones opinion... that is the only way I can make an educated choice, and I always try to treat everyone as I would like to be treated, I am not here to get into a he said she said wee wee contest, I am offering my own point of view if it was taken as any more then that it certainly wasn't the intent.. I fully agree that discussions should be aimed at the improvement of products and the enjoyment of the hobby.

Anyway this is my take on it ( and mine alone)...
cheers

eddie

[Kmot]

Without Lehner, there would be no electric world record faster than any other gas or nitro RC boat.

Loo, do you really think without Lehner that all progress toward speed records would halt? I think not.

Lehner was a motor of personal choice. I believe the same would have ultimately been accomplished with any number of motors.

I also do not believe in kissing an individuals butt in order for them to make product. I seriously doubt any manufacturer, large or small, is sacrificing their profit as a favor to modelers.

And, it is the accomplishments of the modeler giving the manufacturer the reputation. Not the other way around. :)

[Turbosun]

I don't think it would have happened this fast. Personal opinion.

As I said, Lehner's operation is profitable. However, I think his personal interests keeps his drive to improve products for Marine RC applications higher than is economically justifiable. Don't forget that in the "old" world, money is not the only driving force. Hans Lehner enjoys running boats himself. Here in the USA this may be sometimes misinterpreted IMHO...

Also I do not think that only the accomplishments of the modeller are the end all. As in any relationship, both parties contribute. The modeller is not able to do it with the manufacturer and vice versa.

[B.K. Foster]

What I am going to say is NOT intended to offend anyone! -

When I got my Lehner motors they were the fastest on the lake- Visually Observed by more than one person and noted as such- However, The more I have ran my Lehner powered hulls, the more rapidly the performance dropped off- Again Visually Observed by more than one party. This was done with new cells, sport cells, etc... Across the spectrum...

A keen observer who has run several brand BL motors, would notice the obvious difference from one manufacturer to another over a period of time such as a season of racing, several seasons of racing as to the level of performace of their equipment...

I am not slamming Lehner merely stating observations that the Lehner motors (from what I have visually indicated) do not hold up to the paces that we put our BL equipment through, and moreover I can name two other manufacturers whose product that I have used and observed that have outlasted (in the performance department) Lehners... Bear in mind that we run more frequently than the majority of boaters in the US... Thus, an accelerated rate of return will cause observations and characteristics to come to the fore more rapidly here than in other clubs in the US....

Food for thought...

[ivo boecksteyns]

I am a modeller for 25 years and running BL for almost 5 .
I run Lehner and other BL motors and i have seen no notisable degrading from one of them .
In europe Lehner is considered (one of ?) the best BL motors there is .
About the bearing plate of the 22 series . MHZ sells mainly big boats and they use 22 series Lehners for them , because of the
way they use the motors , the have to modify them . Initialy these motors were not designed for power boats .
It is like taking an Allisson from a mustang , putting it in an unlimited hydro and complain it had to be modified .

About the 120,7 Mph speed record , at this moment i think that the 22 series Lehner motor is probably the only one that can do it .
And i dont believe that a motor that costs only 30% copared to the Lehners has better magnetic material in it .
There are 3 reasons fore permanent magnets to lose their strenght , chock , heat or a rapidly changing magnetic field .
In other words : vibration , cooling , timing .
One more thing , BK electronics and Lehner are 2 different companies .

Ivo
Belgium

[eddieh]

Originally posted by ivo boecksteyns
.
It is like taking an Allisson from a mustang , putting it in an unlimited hydro and complain it had to be modified .


Ivo, I hope my comments were not taken in the wrong context, I was merely looking at the threads and as stated I have no experience with brushless, I agree with you that if you were running an allison in your unlimited and it needed to be modified who would complain? that is exactly my point you would welcome someone who has raced them to give a few guidelines on where the weakness are, it is exactly like the development of racing engines, when the forces on the crankshaft became significant and failures started to occur on a regular basis, the manufacturers came out with 4 bolt main bearing caps, roller bearings etc, they didn't sit on their laurels because the product was selling, they improved the start they had, as you guys go faster and faster, the envelope seems to be trying to catch up to you as opposed the other way round, geez I mean from 89 to 120 and what's next ? 140? 150? but if you want the same gains the product needs to get better too... and that comes from real life testing under the hardest conditions.. better to provide the manufacturer with real results and failures instead of hoping they will go away.. thank you for your comments about 5 years and no noticeable performance loss, are any of your motors newer? I understand the problem isn't with the older motors it was with some of the newer ones?

after seeing some of the performance available for the 1/8th hydro in a brushless I thought Man that is sweet, but at that kind of money I am not willing to try something that may or may not hold up.. I myself and more worried about the controllers, but this is interesting too... thanks for your advice in advance...
cheers eddie

[Sanja Cowan]

As stated before i have made a purchase thru a dealer for a lehner 22 series motor.I have not changed my mind,or changed my thoughts on lehner....The dealer is so confident in lehner motors,it was stated to me that if i had motor failure I would be refunded double the ammount back of what i originally paid for it.How many dealers can say that?.This dealer has run several lehner motors in many configurations without failure.For years i have seen lehners become dominant in the FE world,they are a common item now.In one of my previous posts I had asked if anybody to date has had to replace bearings on a lehner motor.....only 1 reply regarding that.I am not trying to start anything or point fingers but to me there is a big part of this story missing..... ??????.......Cheers to all & have a safe holiday!.

[Turbosun]

@Bryan,
It is not whether you offend or not. It is whether objective, quantitative information is brought to bear in making conclusions and deductions. If hearsay and eyeball observations are used to conclude what motor performance is I would think the credibility of this Forum would be somewhat affected......

The only definitive correlation I seem to find is that members of the greater county of Team Rum Runner have seen a (non-quantitative) performance loss of their boats now exclusively attributed to their Lehner's. I am not trying to offend here either. Just an observation.

Please do not see trying to defend Lehner's products. I use them just as I use other BL motors. I don't sell them.

By the way, I dont see any degradation. However, my observations are not quantitative. In addition, my conditions I run at are probably a walk in the park in comparison to some here. However, I think this sudden reporting of degradation of performance without hard facts seem to be somewhat puzzling.

I presume that Team Rum Runner and affiliates will not be running them next season either? If this is the case, would this be because Rum Runner's distributorship was dropped by Lehner or because the degradation issues you seem to be experiencing?
Will you be running Mr Wollards new (to be) offerings? If you are I hope his motors will be as competitive as the Lehner's. By the way, the performance of Wollard's motors (to be) wont improve with the supposed degradation of Lehners' magnets...

I presume we are all after the same thing...Going faster with electric-powered boats. I hope that same goal will result in a constructive dialog without generalisations which hurt one of our biggest aces' bread.

[Brian Vega]

Turbosun, You have some interesting questions! As for my previuos post I stated that I had done my own testing and found that the Lehner motors I was running, some that had been used for a couple of years I noticed some Lack of performance! In my own testing found that the magnets were getting weak! This does not mean that all Lehners will do the same but it is the case with some if not most of my motors. Why! I have no clue.... I simply posted my concerns and findings with these motors! I would love to know what caused the reduction in performance! Heat, To much power etc. I dont know! But dont associate the problems I am having with the fact that RumRunner doesnt carry these motors anymore.

I presume now that Rum Runner is unable to distribute Lehner anymore Team Rum Runner and affiliates will not be running them next season either? Will you be running Mr Wollards new (to be) offerings?

What is this supposed to mean? Should I or anyone else who takes racing seriously run a motor of my own that is Weaker in performance than it should be? Why would I do that? And again I am speaking about my own motors not yours or anyone elses.... I know they wont be in my boats! I could care less if there in yours or not. Thats your call.. ;)

[eddieh]

Originally posted by reaper
As stated before i have made a purchase thru a dealer for a lehner 22 series motor.I have not changed my mind,or changed my thoughts on lehner....The dealer is so confident in lehner motors,it was stated to me that if i had motor failure I would be refunded double the ammount back of what i originally paid for it.How many dealers can say that?.

Reap, that is an outstanding deal... I would get it in writing though... and also a waiver of running flex and such, but double your money back, that is very high confidence indeed.... I don't know of any dealer who ever offered that kind of warranty... did he say for how long??? regardless still very impressive...

[B.K. Foster]

.It was not you who implied a connection between the problems you were having with Rum Runner's dropped distributorship. Others seem to imply that with remarks like

."For whatever reason RRH is no longer selling the Lehner line should be a message to boaters and racers alike."

Dr. Loo,

Let me make this abundantly clear- That tidbit of a comment is being used out of context, and has no hidden implications behind what was said.

The message was given to the fact that Don and Donnie felt it was in the better interest of the customers of RRH to not carry Lehner any longer. And nothing more.

But I absolutely agree, let's get the thread back on track. If there are dissenting opinions over Lehner then we are all free to see things from our own perspective. However, we should also be free to disagree without getting cajoled for seeing the other side of the coin. If there are different opinions based on experience then so be it.

Let's focus on ideas to improve things instead of pointing fingers at members who have an honest opinion as to a product that they have raced extensively. Remember, RumRunner did do the footwork to get Lehner here in the states. That was a lot of work, and time as well as fiscal investments to do so. They (RRH) chose to no longer carry Lehner in what they felt was in the better interest of their customers. Bottom line! Let's keep the potshots out of discussion shall we.

[Steven Vaccaro]

The dealer is so confident in lehner motors,it was stated to me that if i had motor failure I would be refunded double the ammount back of what i originally paid for it.

Reaper please tell us where we go to get such a warrantee?

[Sanja Cowan]

eddie,There is no reason for me to recieve it in writing...I have dealt with the distributor before.It was clearly stated that there is a 2 year factory warranty...none the less i am completely confident in the dealer..On the dealers website it states there willing to put there reputation on the line for the Lehner product...the dealer does not void the warranty if a flex hex or coupler is used.....

[Steven Vaccaro]

Reaper which dealer?

[Don Wollard]

Ok Gents.

Twice above, I asked for the respect that this thread be keep on track. Any more nonsense and this thread will be closed.

Can anyone [out there] offer a preventative or upgrade suggestions for the Lehner line other than what was described above by Sigge?

[LOU]

I think the water cooling jackets should be run. I see alot of boats setup without it. All it takes is overheating the magnets onetime and you'll see loses in performance. Keep things cool and you extend the life of your motor!!!

[Don Wollard]

Originally posted by Ralf M.
my question:
the motor is degrading, but why?

is there a chance, to prevent this?

May I suggest a simple test which may help you decide for yourself.

1. Hold your motor in one hand and spin the output shaft. Does it turn smooth? Or does it seem to drag and stop spinning quickly.

What I do is hold my motor up to my ear and spin the output shaft. If I hear any sound other than that of the bearings turning, I have a problem. If you hear a gritty sound - you also have a [could] have problem. Try this and report back. In the event you have a bearing problem - you will know right away.

Boca Bearings sell replacement bearings which fit both the 19 series and the 22 series Lehner motors(www.bocabearings.com)

2. If your Lehner motor was made in the past year - it might be worth your time to open your motor and inspect the rotor. This is just a suggestion and ONLY made as a preventative measure. That dragging sound could be the sound of your rotor touching the windings - that is, in the event your rotor has rusted.

The Lehner can is not easy to open. Donnie made a jig to open Lehner cans - so you need to "be careful" that you do not damage your motor.

If your rotor is a dull color, rusty looking or multi-colored some attention might be necessary. Most of the Lehner rotors are NOT plated ... but should be coated with an epoxy based material. If your rotor is properly coated - It will have a satin finish or 'shiny' finish.

What to do if your rotor is rusty or not coated? Hmmm!! This is difficult. First - inspect your rotor carefully. If you have any chips or nicks on your rotor ... be fair warned. Your rotor could be degrading and needs to be replaced - right away.

In the event your rotor is rusty looking - you can clean off the rust yourself with a towl. Just handle the rotor very carefully. DO NOT DROP IT - AND KEEP IT WAY FROM ANYTHING METAL. Then what? Well ... once you have remove the rust you can put the rotor back in your motor and go boating.

When we discovered this problem last summer - we experimented to find a fast solution. There is not a fast solution and the factory denied the problem 'could possibilly exist'. We tested various materials until we decided what the best options are. For the most part - I am reluctant in this thread to share any solutions since if you are unfamilar with this type of repair you could easy further damage your motor.

Simply put - if your motor needs attention (maintenace) will know right away. In the event you have a new motor and any of these problems exit - you should contact your dealer right away. Defective folks ... is defective regardless of whose name is on the product.

I want to be clear about something else here. My experiance with failed Lehner motors were in the 19 series mostly. The 15 series motors (400 - 480 size) are basically airplane motors. The Basic series motors have a solid plated rotor. I have only seen 5 or 6 rotor failures in these motors. In all cases ... the rotors came loose from the spindal and floated around. These motors were all used in RC cars. I only witness one such problem on a brand new motor had a loose rotor - right from the factory. Since the 22 series motors are essentially large versions of the 19 series (according to Lehner's site) - some of the same problems 'could be' possible... as noted in this thread, above. Indeed - there would be no need for upgrade parts by third party vendors if no problem existed.

BL motor technology is relatively new for the RC Hobbies. At my last count - there are now over 30 companies making motors for the RC market and more coming in 04. With all this interest - would it be good to have a comparison between some of these products? I don't know about you .... but this topic of BL Motors can be very confusing.

Just a suggestion - but perhaps we could start a new thread in early 04 and do a rotor comparison and explanation. Complete with pics which show how the parts are made. This would allow the user to decide who has improved there product and who hasn't. Apples to apples, gents.

BTW - Sigge made a comment on which motors held records. Just so there isn't any confusion I wanted to breifly comment. In the world of RC Hobbies (planes, cars, trucks, boats, etc), Hacker is the current leader. Just the facts!

Team Rum Runner used highly modified Lehner motors at the NAMBA Nationals in 03. NOT stock motors. In fact - in classes where the Team ran stock Lehner motors we generally did not win. Just an observation.

[Ralf M.]

hi don (and eddieh)

thx, i will be careful.
this are my 2280/12
http://people.freenet.de/exocets/Lehner-Paket1.JPG

you can see, i use the new front part.
in my boat, this motor is supportet too.
i think, such a big motor like the 2280 should be stabilized in every way it could be.

after breaking the small spring rings (and so destroying the windings) is removed the springs.

but i fear two points:
the shaft seems very thin with its 5mm for this very long rotor.
whats about vibrations?
a non mechanical point is decreasing of the magnets, you explained.
problem is, that the motor is closed, so cooling and CONTROLLING of the temperature is a problem.

my trust after all is not very high.
the question is: should i risk 400€ or not?
but this is my decision.

thx

[Steven Vaccaro]

Don/Ralf I see the front bearing plate screws off but is any thread locker used? I would like to dismantle mine for inspection.

[Don Wollard]

Ralf-

Rule One. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The 2280 motor is very hardy. Unless you are operating in extreme conditions - brace your motor and go have fun. In the event you notice a problem, investigate. BTW - your rotors looks good.

Again - I wouldn't open a motor unless I had a reason. In the event you notice or have even the slightest vibration - investigate immediately. This is real important. Start with your drive line and coupler BEFORE you check your motor.

[Ralf M.]

pagemaster: the plate is fixed with thread locker. you must remove the watercooling, mount the motor on a rib like in a boat, use double sided adhesive tape, and then try to turn the stator.

when you finished your control, don`t use any thread locker again, you will have a problem open the motor again :D

hope you understand my explanation.

[Don Wollard]

Originally posted by Pagemaster
Don/Ralf I see the front bearing plate screws off but is any thread locker used? I would like to dismantle mine for inspection.

No Thread locker used in the Lehner's I have seen. Its just real tight.

You have to literally hold the motor in a clamp of some sort to open it. We use a bicycle mounting clamp to hold these motors. The Aluminium cans are VERY soft. Perhaps 6060 or 6061 is used - even on the end cap. Becareful!

Another way to open the can is with some leverage. Donnie machined from flat stock a bar about 2 foot long. The motor mounts in the middle. With this leverage - the can opens easily.

[Ralf M.]

Originally posted by Don Wollard
Ralf-

Rule One. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The 2280 motor is very hardy. Unless you are operating in extreme conditions - brace your motor and go have fun. In the event you notice a problem, investigate. BTW - your rotors looks good.

Again - I wouldn't open a motor unless I had a reason. In the event you notice or have even the slightest vibration - investigate immediately. This is real important. Start with your drive line and coupler BEFORE you check your motor.

this complete motor is a new one, because the other broke because of the spring rings.
i mounted the new plate, and removed the spring rings. this are the modifications (when breaking the spring rings again i would bite me in my a$$ :D )

the problem is, i drive direct in a big mono, when there is a mechanical problem in the motor, the motor is dead. there is no chanche rescue anything, because it dies too fast.

let the luck be with me :D

[Don Wollard]

Ralf-

Sorry to hear your motor died.

Here is a pic of a rusty rotor. You can see the various color changes. Solid colors such as your rotor displays means the rotor was coated.

[Ralf M.]

woahhh, thx for the photo, looks bad.

you`re rightthe non mounted rotors seems to be coated.
but the new rotor, hmm.
have your ever lost magnetic-pieces, especially on the edges of the segments? this means, the rotor is not coated, right?

i knew, a lot of questions, but im so afraid after destroyed windings :D
before i use this motor, i will change the rotors, safe is safe ;)

PS: the foto is one from ebay, i sell them before killing them...but on the other side...

[Don Wollard]

Originally posted by Ralf M.
woahhh, thx for the photo, looks bad.

have your ever lost magnetic-pieces, especially on the edges of the segments? this means, the rotor is not coated, right?

Yes! I need Donnie to take the pics for examples for me (he is out of town for a few days). My camera does not focus very close to the pics come out blurry.

I mentioned in a reply above ... this type of magentic material is very soft. If not plated or coated - problems may occur such as loss of magnetic intregrity and the potential of splinters. Nonplated rotors have a low heat tollerence. That means - at a low temp the magnetic strength of the rotor can degrade. This is nothing new - and has always been a matter of topic amount motor builders, motor engineers and high perforance racers.

[eddieh]

Originally posted by Don Wollard
No Thread locker used in the Lehner's I have seen. Its just real tight.

You have to literally hold the motor in a clamp of some sort to open it. We use a bicycle mounting clamp to hold these motors. The Aluminium cans are VERY soft. Perhaps 6060 or 6061 is used - even on the end cap. Becareful!

Another way to open the can is with some leverage. Donnie machined from flat stock a bar about 2 foot long. The motor mounts in the middle. With this leverage - the can opens easily.

ahhh tOOLS SOMETHING i KNOW ABOUT... :D
Why not try to adapt one of those "Fan Belt" Oil filter type wrenches, this way you can get leverage and a soft but very tight grip? can make a small square adapter to mount the nose, and then use the wrench to spin the body...just a thought

Just a question on the pics Ralf posted, the one on the left looks blotchy? or is that just the picture, where the one on the right looks even colored? just curious is this the make up of the magnets???

[Ralf M.]

eddieh,
the lft is a little bit rough on the blotchys, but is ok.
the right one was the rotor in the destryoed motor, the winding-material and the spring ring came between rotor and winding material, so there it is darker colored :D
this is my theory.

[eddieh]

Ralf thanx, I don't really know about brushless rotors. it is bad enough when a brushed arm goes...

[ivo boecksteyns]

The front plate on a Lehner motor is secured with Loctite 222 , according to Lehner.
Most of my motors are a bit older except a basic xl 1200 wich a run in a 20 cell mono and that is way out of spec. (i asked Lehner) but the motor holds (until now).
The differences i see between european and american racing is : runtime , wich meens current , and i have the impression that in the states motors aren't always watercooled . In europe you would find hardly any motor that isn't watercooled .

Ivo
Belgium

[Sigge]

As this is mostly an rc boating forum for electrical boats, when I wrote boat records I meant records done by RC model boats running BL motors.

"Lehner sure do needs to be recognised as the best BL motor mfg when it comes to boat records." - Sigge

Originally posted by Don Wollard

BTW - Sigge made a comment on which motors held records. Just so there isn't any confusion I wanted to breifly comment. In the world of RC Hobbies (planes, cars, trucks, boats, etc), Hacker is the current leader. Just the facts!



When it comes to plane records,
I do know that Hacker is big in Pylon racing, but isn't it Plettenberg that has the most records along all plane records?
Hacker is supporting plane racers very much, and he likes to fly himself.
If this was a pylon racing forum I would say hat off for Mr Hacker for supporting the plane racing!

When it comes to cars and trucks I really must say that Hacker has done a good job in modifying his motors so the new C-series was designed.
Better cooling, new segmentated rotors and a sturdier motor can fastening.
This is progress.
Now, it is too bad that they also became so much heavier.
I guess all the punishment a motor must handle in a car or truck or heli means that a Hacker motor must be modified to hold up.

Maybe it is time for a sturdier Lehner motor for car and trucks, too?

Sigge