Getting ready for November.

[Ragged Edge]

Not already????:( :doh:

[AndyKunz]

What did you do, Tim?

Andy

[Ragged Edge]

Just being the newbie I am!

To much motor, to many cells.

I did this on my third run with the boat. The first two runs none of the electronics were over 150 degrees, speedo 148, batts 133, and motor 144, taken with a thermal gun. I guess I didn`t kill my batteries at the SAWs last year, I think they must have simply woke up. On my last run coming out of the last turn I let off to scrub speed and when I added throttle, well the picture says it all. I think when I let off I damaged a FET and when I throttled back up I finished the job. The motor and batteries were still cool to touch, I didn`t get temp readings because people had came from all over to see what I was running. I did however feel them and nothing was close to hot to the touch.

I beat my Navy 99 hard for three days at the SAWs with no problem. In fact I should get a record for having put the most SAWs runs on a S-Hydro using a single controller. I put a 50 volt 2200 mf cap on it and it is still ticking today.

Bottom line though, just having to much fun. It was costly but it provided some good Saturday night entertainment for my friends at the pond.

[Pete B.]

I still have the fried remains of the navy 99 we tag teamed. I'm going to run your hull this year in p hydro. We were not that far off last year.

[Ragged Edge]

Cool Pete,

Thats good to hear. I advise putting a cap on your controller. See you there.

[Randy Naylor]

Tim Hi
I was wondering if that 99 controler you burnt was a new one or a old one?

[Ragged Edge]

Hello there Randy. It was Pete that burnt up the 99, I had gotten sick of the boat and gave it to him and he put a new style 99 in it and made a single oneway pass, turned around and it went up in smoke. Ask Pete how his new boat smelt. It must have been a long ride home, three controllers.:pu: :pu: I swear by the added cap. Whether engineers think it needs to be there or not, all I know is what I have witnessed. I cant take credit for it. it wasn`t my thinking to try it, it came from Dick Crowe, and Joerg.

[jevmax]

Tim,

Exactly where do you wire in that added capacitor on a 99?

[brooks93]

got any pictures

[Ragged Edge]

Mine is the old style 99, I removed the water proof material on the end that the caps are already on. Once I got that off I just soldered the larger cap across where the other two caps already are, and resealed it with shoe goo. I was later told not to use shoe goo on electonincs so you may want to use another product although mine has yet to fail. What ever you use to reseal the unit put in place some material to keep the sealing agent from entering the boards. It was really simple, just use care and don`t create a solder bridge when adding the extra cap. Now I cannot and will not say this is a cure all but it sure has save that controller. I have close to fifty runs on it in testing for the SAWs and running the SAWs. I have no numbers but I would say at least twenty of those were at the SAWs.

[AndyKunz]

If that's too hard to do, you could put it across the battery input leads (on the ESC) as close to the ESC as possible. Not as nice but certainly better than nothing.

Andy

[Jay Turner]

Andy, that's the battery leads, not the motor leads? I haven't cut mine open to see where the current caps are.

[jevmax]

Thanks for the tip Tim. It might save me a few ESCs :)
Andy, what would you consider to be the best capacitor to use for this application?

[brooks93]

yes I would be interested in the best cap also for a 32 cell application

[AndyKunz]

I haven't looked for what these controllers are putting back, but you want a low ESR cap with very good AC characteristics.

Typically this will be one which is rather large dimensionally. It should be rated at 2x - 3x your battery pack. A 12cell pack should have at least a 35V cap there. Your 32 cell setup should be 100V absolute minimum rating. I would expect it will be about the size of an egg.

Anybody ever wonder how BL motors get your packs hot but still let them put out more duration?

Andy

[F1tunnelhull]

Tim,

do you have any pictures of what you did to the 99 with the new cap.

I am a little unclear - did you take the factor ones off all together?

What is the serial # of the cap that you used???

I myself have a hacker 99
not running it off 24 cells - yet
just 12 - 18 cells but never over proped.
I want to one day attempt to get some more speed but until now i didnt then that the ESC could handle it.

[Ragged Edge]

Guys, Andy made a good point which I never thought of as another way to get from a to b. Putting it on the battery input leads would be the same thing and maybe easier to do. That way you also would not have to compromise the waterproofing on the controller. All it would take is to carefully remove a short section of each power lead wire just before it enters the heat shrink and solder the cap at that location, place a larger piece of heat shrink over the whole thing and your done. I do not have any numbers on the cap except it was 50v 2200uf. As for a picture in this case it would not be worth a thousand words. Without stripping my controller you cannot see anything except the cap. Andy, thats a good idea and the way I will do it in the future. Thanks for pointing that out. The reason I had not done the 77 was I couldn`t find the exact one I wanted but some close 50v 1000uf. Mainly because I didn`t want to mess with the waterproof job on the new 77. Your way I want have to.

[brooks93]

so will this help if you have to run longer wires then you want because of the boat

[Ragged Edge]

Brooks



It is my understanding that the added cap helps prevent damage to the fets caused by back emf. The thinking is that with when you let of the throttle the motor turns into a genorator, if the voltage produced by the motor exceeds the voltage rating of the fets they can become damaged and wil burn out when you add throttle again. With SAWs boats or other hot setups this can be a problem. It has been explained to me by other very intellegent people other than the ones I have already mentioned and there is more to it than I have described but it went way over my head. I am just a dumb carpenter who is willing to listen and try new things and all I am sure of is my 99 is still working and I like that. If I were running only mild to medium setups I would not bother. But that is not in my nature or way of thinking. I like going as fast as possible and then some, which I do not recomend unless one is willing to except what may happen to your equipment. So I will upon buying another controller put a cap on it. Who knows I might burn it up and have to buy yet another and tame it down some. Stupid or not I am going to run the same setup with only that change and see what happens. If it lives I will tell all, if it dies I wll show all. Again.

[Andrewg]

One thing i might add here is saw with brushless is a differnt world to brushed motors

I have been doing a little investigative work on brushess motors and some of the setups we use can pull huge amps - far more tI think most people suspected

More and more i am beginning to think there is an easier way into brushless for people

Hackers and Lehners are power houses but set them up poorlyand they will suck the guts from every other component in the chain the way a brushed motor will not.

Most certainly they will exceed the capabilities of most of the controllers on the market with ease

I notice Europe where the motors are more toward lower amp draws the top end draws are far more modest and easier on cells and controllers there are very few complaints about popping controllers

its a real add for the old dictum of start with a small prop and optimise

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Ragged Edge
It is my understanding that the added cap helps prevent damage to the fets caused by back emf.

Think of it as a reservoir.

When the motor is calling for power (ie, at new commutation phase or PWM), the cap provides extra voltage while the inductors (battery leads) are trying not to deliver any.

Then once the inductors are delivering, it provides a place for the electrons to gather when the ESC suddenly decides it doesn't need them from the batteries any more (end of phase or PWM).

The way it would provide any protection for the FETs is that the voltage won't be allowed to climb because it will be absorbed by the capacitor.

if the voltage produced by the motor exceeds the voltage rating of the fets they can become damaged and wil burn out when you add throttle again.

With brushed ones that's true. With BL, they are cooked and cause a short circuit, taking out other FETs on the board at the next commutation. This is why, when they go, they go real bad whereas with a brushed control you might lose only 1 or 2 FETs and it can be repaired.

There is still a long way to go before I'll run a sensorless ESC in a boat.

Andy

[jevmax]

Geez Andy, start selling us BL boys some of the appropriate caps! I'm curious as to why Hacker doesn't just include a big cap in the Marine series of BL controllers anyway? Maybe we should suggest that to them, as it would seem to be a win-win for both Hacker and the racers.

[Jay Turner]

Jim, this has been suggested to them more than once. Perhaps in the next updated version they will try it. Until then Tim's solution should help keep our current controllers alive a bit longer. Thanks to both Tim and Andy for their help and advice on this very critical issue! :bounce:

[brooks93]

So go post this in the Hacker USA thread.. the one that Shawn Palmer started

[Ragged Edge]

If I might add something here. IMHO. Although I am a beleiver it has not been proven that the added cap help in any way. And according to engineers the caps on the controllers are suppose to enough. To my knowledge we are only talking about one controller. Maybe my 99 is a freak controller. I think before we assume we have a cure for any of our problems and start requesting changes in design we should do more testing and get proof that it helps.


The people I talked with before adding the cap to my 99 told me they had received controllers from Schulte that were sent in for repair which had two caps added of the same value that was standard on the controllers. So instead of having two small caps they had four. I took it upon myself to add one big cap instead of the two smaller ones. Two smaller caps or even one of less value than I used may work just as well. How many caps do the new Schultze controllers have?

[Randy Naylor]

This info is helping me to understand cap's with our controlers. I wonder thought becuse, I will be running a BL system in my sport 24 cell hydro this saw year and do not want to burn my 99. I have had my 99 for 3 years and have been very careful and never ran it on more than 18 cells. I have taken it slowly up to get to 64MPH in my Q sport. ( Small steps) I have looked at the $675. Schultz copntroler to run the 24 cell boat and think I may need to sell one of my kids to get it.:D
But do I realy need it?

[AndyKunz]

If you're kid can solder, I'll give you $675 for him.

:)

Andy

[Ragged Edge]

What motor will you run Randy? I would put my 99 on any Hacker motor setup that I felt was not clearly over the top. In a rigger 24 cells, 8Xl, Navy 99, V940 all day! SAWs racing I`m talking. Wouldn`t even think twice about it. So long as you don`t plan on propping harder than that I personaly wouldn`t worry. Nothing in life is forsure except we and our controllers will die someday. Who knows when that day will come. For years people have been running Hackers in there boats and more records have been sat with there combos than any one other setup. I realize the advancements of batteries and other factors are making it harder on our equipment. We cant expect the manufactors to do all the leg work, when we find something that seems to work we need to work together to either prove or disprove the finding. As was stated by others in the other thread, ( and I dont want to get off track here) we are a very small market for all these suppliers and anything we can do to help them in turn helps use. Same as people have helped Andy perfect his controllers ove the years. I would say give it a try Randy it worked for me. You was there to see all the runs I put down that weekend. You watched me go from in the low eighties to the mid seventies, back to the hi eighties, then the hi ninties, and then over a hundred, all with one controller. Three days of beating, ever been done berore?

[Randy Naylor]

My kid solder naw.......... but he likes to use the mill a lot!:D

actually Tim I was inspired by you, with the setup you ran in the rigger and with my new sport was going to do some of the same. I do need another controler for the Q setup and that is why I was wondering weather it was a new or old as to whitch one to put it in if I can afford another one

[Ragged Edge]

If you are in the market for a new controller anyway and the funds are there go for it. I too will soon own one of the 40-160`s. Quite the unit. But a less expensive way is another 99. Randy as I said in an earlier post, the cap has not been proven but the prospects for it working look good. I plan on more testing when I get my new 77 but I am only one person with a few controllers. I think a to prove or disprove whether it helps or not more people will have to try it. I dont know if it will help for oval racing only test will tell. If people who have been plagued with controller problems in the past put a cap on an found out their problems either went away or lessened in frequency we would then know we are own to something. With that we could contact Shawn with the data. I cant be of much help in the oval arena ask you all know there is not a lot of oval racing around here right now. All I do is play with a few boats ( I play hard though) and test for the SAWs. If everyone put a cap on it would be very easy to know whether it helped or not just by the number of damage units being returned. Randy, What are you doing up at this hour?

[Ragged Edge]

Maybe I don`t know in this case. This is and update on test I have done. It may be like comparing apples to oranges and in a way it is, after all the controllers have a 12 amp rating difference. I ran the 99 in the same boat, same setup as cooked the 77 and had no problems.

The first ran I made (we didnt have a course sat up) I had some birds in my way so I ran way tight of an offical course. The temps I noted were in the range I ran using the 77. On the second run after making a slight strut adjustment, I ran or tried to run a larger course. The linkage arm on my rudder slipped and I had a hard time keeping it on course but was able to finish my laps. The temps were again close. After some minor rudder work and cooling, the third and final run was flawless. The boat ran great, massive straight away speed and I backed out a bit in the turns to keep things under control. It cuts right through the corners like its on rails. But most important, NO SMOKE. Now, I cansay if it is the cap or the 99. Maybe both. I will again update when I receive my new 77 which I plan to put a cap on and run in the same boat. In the interest of the hobby.

Maybe this should be moved to the brushless forum!!!!

[Andrewg]

Tim

from reading your thread and talking to others a how to & a couple of pics of the caps added would be a real bonus

it would seem you have discovered a management of one of the problems affecting brushless controllers

if i can help in any way let me know

great work!

[Randy Naylor]

Tim Hi
Well I have the plugs all most done for the SAW's War Eagle III. All that is left is to to make the plugs for the inner wings. I all so have the casisitors and will be useing them. Still I have fear of using the 77 for anything other than High Voltage and low amp draw. I may just want to get another 99 and be safe.

[Ragged Edge]

Hi Randy,

THERE IS NO REASON TO TAKE CHANCES when you don`t have to. I would get another 99 or if you want mega amp rating but less cell rating go with a Schulze 18-129. 6-18 cells @ 129 amps continues and 171 amp peak. Either way its not worth it to chance cooking a speedo, it ruins your boat. The one I pictured is the only one I have ever cooked in an oval boat and it sucks, the boat smells like crap and I have tried everything to get rid of it. I am becoming of the opinion one should way overkill the speedo whenever possible. In fact I will be running a 32-170 in anything over 18 cells in the future. Good luck with the new boat and when you`re done some pics would be nice. I know its a secret but I want tell or show.

[Randy Naylor]

Hi Tim,
I think you have the same opinion as me when it comes to speed controls. more is better! I have lost many but only burnt one and this splash proof crap sucks too! I lost two this year to water and they were sealed with epoxy that got hot and cracked. All I have left is a 99, 105, 77 and a Pheonix 80. I use to have 4 105's
Pictures..........boy! I think I need to work out the bugs first and hope I have enough time before november.

[Ragged Edge]

Attached is a photo of a Navy 70 that was ran in a 6 cell SAWs rigger. This setup has been ran a number of time (30 plus) all with very low temps considering the nature of the test. By low I mean nothing ever over 150 degrees except the last run which resulted in this. The speedo still works just fine but reached the temp of 195 on this run. The run just prior to this was three passes with temps of no component exceeding 140. What is interesting about the damage is the shrink wrap has melted and split on the caps. The caps were also in the 190 range. Do you think this was caused by heat soaking or is it the result of back emf??? Another note, the batts and motor temps did not exceed 140 and this was a two pass run with a max speed that exceeded any prior run according to a gps. While our lake is not small it is not much longer than a SAWs course. I do want to make it very clear that I am in no way trying to say this is a result of faulty equipment and I dont want to get another bashing session going but I do feel it is the best example of the topic of this discussion I have seen. I think this may be what happens just before the speedos become crispy critters.

[Ragged Edge]

OOPS!

[ChrisHarrington]

I will have to claim this one. It was still worth waking up at 6:00 to run before work. I made it out a little better than Tim this morning. His having nothing to do with a speedo rather than a bird. Dont anyone worry the bird made it out untouched.

[Allan]

Check the tips pages on the schulze electronics website.

He recommends raycon ZL series which are low ESR - not too expensive. Shulze recommend 2 330uf caps in parallel and solder onto the battery lead.

There is also a ZR series Ultra Low ESR but it's not too much difference to the low esr except in price.


It's worth a read.

BTW I'm a tad worried about the new Hacker controllers .... had 3 70's and a 77 burn up out of 5. Now I cannot police the batteries and wire of my users but Rayner is certain the wires are too long.

[Randy Naylor]

I am going to pull the first parts of the new streamliner sport hydro today. At last I will have parts.

[Jay Turner]

Great news Randy. Which class is this one - O, P, Q or S? Or perhaps I should say, which class is this one, 20", 24", 29" or 35"....

[Randy Naylor]

Hi Jay
I am working on the S Sport Hydro-35.25 inch boat, tomorrow I will lay up the other sponson and inner wing and on monday I will have all the parts for the boat made and out of the molds. It will be a streamlined lobster boat. The War Eagle III

[Paul]

Hey Guys,

It will be a streamlined lobster boat. The War Eagle III

Oh nice Randy, a rigger with wings.;) No matter, I plan on owning the S-Sport record so give it your best shot, lol.

Paul.

[Randy Naylor]

Originally posted by Paul
Hey Guys,



Oh nice Randy, a rigger with wings.;) No matter, I plan on owning the S-Sport record so give it your best shot, lol.

Paul.

First you have to learn how to run a SAW course. So we will see!

The boat will have all the parameters of a sport boat and that is all that maters.:D

[Paul]

Hi Randy,

First you have to learn how to run a SAW course. So we will see!

Lucky for me I've already practiced running on a SAW course this year.:D It won't be long now.

Paul.

[Ragged Edge]

Cool some bench racing.

Being a carpenter I run SAWs every day but I still dont have the straight line down yet. So dont worry about me.

Any idea on the new S-sport record??????

[Jay Boyd]

Tim,I like this saw.

[tuna]

Bet my Milwauke can beat your Skil.

100' cords , worm drives only.

You up to it?

Just havin a little fun.

Good day
Tuna

[Jay Boyd]

I'm up to it alright! I got a Mag77!!!

[tuna]

Go ahead and be that way.


Tuna

[Ragged Edge]

Jay,


Thats my kind of dragster. The Mag should work good, nice and light with lots of power. Haven`t tried that setup yet but I have been know to race a few belt sanders and tape measures. Back in the day I had a very fast 25' Stanley.

[Jay Boyd]

Tim,the 25' Fatmax is in my collection! Never thought of racing it though. I think I'll stick to r/c?(everything)
Boat question for ya,can you please tell me what size cable you used on your 24 cell rigger? Thanks,Jay.

[Ragged Edge]

Last year I ran a .150. The cable is still in great shape. I think I would run a .187 if I were using a Lehner. With the Hacker a .150 seemed to work fine. Better yet is a 2mm or .078 wire drive!!!!!!!!

[Randy Naylor]

Originally posted by Ragged Edge
Cool some bench racing.

Being a carpenter I run SAWs every day but I still dont have the straight line down yet. So dont worry about me.

Any idea on the new S-sport record??????

Ya I run saws almost every day too!:D
But have only been to the SAW's four times.

Speed? I do not know:burnout: :confused: I hope faster than any one else in the class. and I am working on it, I pull the last parts out of the molds today and start putting the hull together. Pictures later.

[Guiri]

Any chance of getting a list of entrants posted here. It would be nice for some of us "geographically challenged".

[Jay Turner]

Everything you want to know about the 2004 SAWs, including a list of entrants, can be found here:

http://www.drcwebservices.com/lasaw/default3.htm