timing lights

[ctoms]

Where can I find information on setting up a strait line course. I am interested in the length of the course as well as what to use for timing.

Thanks
Charlie

[Jay Turner]

The NAMBA Rule book is the "definative" source. The course is 330 feet long and a SAW speed is an average of two consecutive passses through the course.

Any 1/16th mile straight-a-way record which has been set on a NAMBA legal course using infrared sights coupled to digital automatically actuated timing devices will not be removed from the books after a three year time period.

[ctoms]

My question is directed at the lights. Where do you get the system and the lights?

Charlie

[AndyKunz]

The District 1 setup was built from a variety of sources. One of the guys worked for a laser company so that's where the lights came from. Unfortunately they were mechanically modulated so they often missed the target.

You may want to try the drag racing community. I had a lot of inquiries for my lights from them. Some web searching should turn up lots of examples.

The lights and sensors are the key. The timing box is extremely simple. Talk to Allan Shillitto about that portion.

Andy

[Dan Chase]

Here are a couple sources:

FarmTek (http://farmtek-fti.com/wireless_eyes.htm)

Race America (http://www.raceamerica.com/ptjr.html)

[Jeff Wohlt]

Do they not use what they use in the RC car/truck field? They put a module in the car/truck which is sensed by a pc when it crosses the line...says track time, etc.

It would also hurt the credibilty of the SAW records if the best of the best is not out there and can be counted on for accurate timing.

If they can time a dragster going 300 mph in under 5 seconds then this should be pretty easy.

It is not a lack of technology because it has been there for several years now.

[Jeff Wohlt]

Dan has the right stuff needed. That wireless is cool! Only $999!

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by Jeff Wohlt
Do they not use what they use in the RC car/truck field? They put a module in the car/truck which is sensed by a pc when it crosses the line...says track time, etc.


No, that's transponder system they use in cars, each transponder gives out a unique signal that's picked up by the timing system.

SAW uses an infrared beam located at both ends of the 330' straight. When the boat crosses the first beam the timing is started, it ends when it breaks the beam at the other end of the course. At the LA SAW, the timing needs to be reset between each pass. The hard part of setting up a SAW course is that each beam has an emitter and a reflector, so you need to have a pond that is wide enough to turn the boats around after a pass, yet shallow enough for the beams to reach their respective receivers. On top of all that, you need a minimum of 100 yards on each end of the 330' straight for the boats to build up speed and run it off at the other end.

Finding a good location is half the battle or more.

[Jay Turner]

If they can time a dragster going 300 mph in under 5 seconds then this should be pretty easy. Actually if one compares full-scale drag racing to R/C SAW racing first hand, he'd not say that the latter would be "pretty easy" in comparison. The drag strip is only ca. 30 feet wide between the optical devices; the cars are huge and cut any beam easily; they run on a perfectly flat surface which never changes; they only measure the last 60 feet of the course; drag racing has huge funding to pay for the purchase, construction and maintenance of state-of-the-art timing equipment.

The SAW event is far more challenging. The pond may be over one hundred feet wide between sensors; the boats are small and close to the surface; that surface can be flat one minute and rough the next, requiring the lights to be set high off the water and making it more difficult for a boat to trip the lights; there are ducks and other wildlife to trip the lights; damp conditions can render the IR signals unreadable; there is poor funding to purchase the "best of the best" equipment (no surprise when comparing a huge multi-million dollar sport to a tiny dimestore hobby). Technology is useless without the ability to purchase it.

I always get a charge out of being told how easy it all is...... ;)

[AndyKunz]

Only 100 feet? The District 1 course is over 1000' across. That's why they use lasers.

Andy

[Jeff Wohlt]

Jay, I am not doubting it is very hard to get all set up. My point is the equipment...it is available and if this "dimestore hobby" is that important to be touting world records then they better have some darn good equipment so there is some credibility for saying they are "records".

One thing that will begin to happen is speeds will become closer and closer in each class and down to possible 10ths of seconds which WILL make the difference so anything less than perfection will not do.

You might be right about the drag racing but certainly the water can't be to too rough or none of these boats would ever make it through (as you well know...there is nothing more level than water) There are many factors that drag racing deals with that boats will never deal with. I'm sure slight humidity changes for our sport does not mean you change timing, fuel flow, tire compounds, etc. I just don't see how drag racing would even compare...all I was stating was the timing factors of the sport of drag racing.

Hey, just my opinion...and we all know what they say about those. :)

[Jay Turner]

Jay, I am not doubting it is very hard to get all set up. My point is the equipment...it is available and if this "dimestore hobby" is that important to be touting world records then they better have some darn good equipment so there is some credibility for saying they are "records". And that equipment is in use today, and it works pretty well. True, resolution is not down to the .000x second, but it doesn't have to be today. The difference between 120 and 121 mph is 0.015 seconds, well within today's resolution....but you are right, tomorrow we will need better equipment as the speeds of the top classes continue to grow. The question will be, who will buy it?

Will speeds become closer and closer between classes? How can they? This doesn't happen in most other speed events (although in nitro the 7.5 are pretty close to the 11s and 13s, for the reason stated below). With the power available directly proportional to the number of cells - unlike nitro where the smaller motors can have higher specific outputs due to their higher rpm - there should be a greater gap. Certainly 8 cell boats will never come close to 18 cell boats, in the long run at least.

You might be right about the drag racing but certainly the water can't be to too rough or none of these boats would ever make it through (as you well know...there is nothing more level than water. Actually level has nothing to do with it, but the varying height due to waves (or the highest duck) does. The lights have to be set to not be tripped by the highest waves, otherwise someone who wants to run in rougher water would get a short time, and perhaps an inaccurate record. I have seen a 6-cell mono record a pass over 100 mph. I submit that the drag race track is far flatter than a windy lake.....

There are many factors that drag racing deals with that boats will never deal with. I'm sure slight humidity changes for our sport does not mean you change timing, fuel flow, tire compounds, etc. No, I'm talking about the timing system, not engine requirements. Very high humidity can absorb the IR energy of the lights and make them inoperative. This kept Dick Crowe from making several passes in 2002, and could be one reason that his 24-cell record that year was low, with him having to sit on the water slowly sinking until the lights began to work again. I've never seen this kind of thing happen in dag racing.

Hey, just my opinion...and we all know what they say about those. :) Jeff I was just winding you up - no one's opinion is sacred here, and you have just as much right to state yours as anyone else does. :D

[ctoms]

What type of race format do they run in NAMBA SAW events?

Do they run one after another in a pre difined order or do they just get up there and run when they are ready.

How many passes do you get?

How many attempts do you get in one class. What I mean is, if you make a couple runs in P mono and are not happy with it can you make some changes and try agian later that day in the same class with the same boat?

If you make 2 passes and flip on the third do you get to keep the first two or are DQ'd

I bet these answers are all in the magic NAMBA book but I do not have it in front of me.

Do all of the hull restrictions apply the same as the rest of NAMBA

I am going to hold one of these events soon. I know it is a difficult to hold an event like this but we do have the perfect pond and there is no SAW events anywhere even close to us in the midwest that know of for electrics.

Maybe I could show up at a nitro event and slip in a couple passes.

Sorry to ramble on

Charlie

[Jeff Wohlt]

Jay, I always appreciate and learn from your responses. Sounds like a lot of work to make sure they are stable. I figured you all had it down to an art.

Thanks,

JW

[Dan Chase]

SAW is a lot harder then it looks!

Doug, all NAMBA rules apply as far as hull and drive. Each driver is allotted 5 minutes to get in as many runs as they can with as many boats as they choose, there is a running order so you have an idea when your coming up. Then the rotation starts over. You can toss as many boats on the water as you wish. If no one is on the water, your free to jump out of line and make a run if the CD grants it.

To count as a record, the runs must be back to back, so yes, if you make 3 runs and break a record in the first two and blow over on the third run, the first two still count. If you were to blow over during the second run, the first and third runs would not count.

Your free to make all the changes you like, even during your 5 minute run slot.

[Jay Turner]

Maybe I could show up at a nitro event and slip in a couple passes..... That is exactly how the LA SAWs began. A group of us ( six or seven IIRC ) showed up at an announced nitro event and entered the rotation schedule. A few of the nitro guys weren't that happy since we reduced the number of times they got to run, but we were NAMBA members and the event wasn't closed.

After tagging-on to the nitro guys for a couple events, we decided to hold our own. However we didn't go out and buy the timing equipment; instead we hired the nitro guys to run the event for us. This meant that the timing was established and there would be no question about the validity of the timing and officiating ( well, almost none! ) while allowing all of us to concentrate on running our boats. This works well, and doesn't require the investment in equipment you only use a coule times a year.

[Pete B.]

Charlie, last year we did draw numbers to estabilish a running order with 5 min. given to each driver to run as many boats as he could. Running order would be reversed the following day to keep all fair. As it worked out we just ran our boats as we got them ready, this worked out very good and I don't remember anyone complaining about the system. I can not tell you how many runs I got in but it was alot and I was satisified with my time on the water.
You could make as many passes as you wanted, most boats would not make more than 3 at a record pace. If you did flip or fail to finish a 3rd pass you could keep the other 2. Mark and his crew were so good that after any pass they told you wether you were on a record setting pace (BACK IT UP!) or getting slower. If a boat did set a record, Mark inspected it then handed out the paperwork.
The nature of this kind of race is men competing against themselves and the clock, there was no bickering about anything just some great sportsmanship. I think at any given moment guys going for the same record teamed up to help each other. I think more importance was put on pushing the envelope than the record itself.
Talk to Jeff Vasquez and get Marks number. They have it down! great event.

[seadoojumper]

You guys might want to try and see if the full scale drag boats have a special system they use? I know once again they are much bigger than rc boats but they might have something special that they use for the water. just a thought.