Offshore rule change

[brooks93]

as I have them worded.. still to open so lets close it up

[brooks93]

lets get it on

don't complain about them if you don't have a solution..

if you don't race offshore then don't complain about the proposals or the changes..

lets keep it on track and on topic ie. lets not get sidetracked

give a littel, take a little. everyone needs to be open minded and willing to compromise

[brooks93]

the biggest issue in the part of the rules is the lack of a exact description to what a deep vee and cat are for offshore.

also what the specs are for a ride pad or flat spot. I don't want someone coming with a flat bottom boat and saying its a ride pad.

we need to word the descriptions so there are no holes or room to get around them or room for interpretation like there is now

[Dennis Whitt]

Lets forget the reference to general powerboat rules thats just confusing and double talk.
Lets forget D alltogether.If Iwant to use Kodak sponsor decals I should be able to with out getting out the calculator.The rest looks good.
Change flat spot to flat keel.

[ctoms]

Looks good However,

Does the sponsors decals part need to resemble a real boat or can you just do your own unique design as long as it is 20% of the visible hull?

I really like offshore and look forward to running more of it.

Should there be a minimum V angle to prevent a nearly flat bottom mono from running?

[Dennis Whitt]

The V demension should be trashed.Any body who has runa shallow V in offshore figures out around lap 4 that they have made a mistake.What do you guys think ?

[brooks93]

Dennis I left the general in there to signify electric only in they way I worded it and took out reference to any other spot in the book.

the 20% rule is that you must have if copying a real offshore boat 20% of the detail ie sponsors on your boat.. If you want to do your own them great.. more power too you but, it should look offshore in appearance.

Flat Keel.. done I will make the change

Ctoms.. 16 degree's is the standard industry classification for a deep vee.. which a El Lobo has 16 degree's..

this needs to be figured out some way.. without restricting the hull selection so much that there are only 3 boat to choose from

[Pete B.]

I agree with Dennis and Charlie,
D- All boats are required to have some form of sponsor decals, decals must cover 20% of the visible hull

[brooks93]

The V demension should be trashed.Any body who has runa shallow V in offshore figures out around lap 4 that they have made a mistake.What do you guys think ?

LOL ..

hey its up to everyone if that want to allow shallow vee boats to run.. I don't see a big problem with it because some shallow vees like the sidewinder, Streamer and others are offshore boats in my book..

[brooks93]

I agree with Dennis and Charlie,
D- All boats are required to have some form of sponsor decals, decals must cover 20% of the visible hull

ahh I see what you guys mean now.. good idea I like that.

I will make the change

[Pete B.]

Qiuck print it:D

[Dan Chase]

I would scratch

a. Electric Offshore racing rules are a supplement to the NAMBA General Powerboat Rules of Competition and only effect Electric NAMBA Offshore Competition. In case of a conflict the Electric Offshore Rules shall prevail.

Add something to the effect of...

A. Electric Offshore competition racing rules are stand alone "Electric" offshore rules. All NAMBA safety rules are enforced and still in effect.

Autonomy starts at home! :D

Another thing to consider, when we wrote the ECO rules, there are no records, this was done so that any club could run any course they decide, set courses are only necessary if "records" are maintained.

[brooks93]

LOL

this is good input.. constructive and to the point.

I will edit the top to reflect changes..

when we are done with this part we can close it and move onto the second half

[brooks93]

ya that makes sense Dan..

change made

[Dennis Whitt]

Do you determine 20% ?I like it but........

[Pete B.]

Kelly, on part 5 of the off shore rules is the course. Lets change that to read something like:
1.) Based on a NAMBA 1/10 mile course
2.) Must include 1 left hand turn no more than 2
3.) Exact course layout will be determined at the club level

Since no 2 courses have to be the same no records shall be maintained

[Dan Chase]

Your still falling back on the old rulebook, we would only need to transcribe the saftey rules. Unless of couse you want to have radio impound and a dozen other rules that only apply to nitro.

[brooks93]

this is how I defined the course.. we are jumping a head but, ok

5. Race Courses: is a standard NAMBA oval with a hairpin buoy 60’ from turn 1,3,4 or 6 (sites discretion) with a left turn buoy will be placed 85’ from turn 3 and 4 or 1 and 6 (sites discretion) and will be placed inside of the course no less the 10’ and no more then 20’.

[brooks93]

good question Dennis..

I would say if you had a 25" boat

then 4" of the area above the water line should be covered with graphics or lettering.

[Dan Chase]

What about clubs that don't have the room for the course?

Another "RULE" that we tend to ignore is the test firing of boats in the pits, a defined hot pit area, Prop guards on the boat at all times etc...

If were rewriting the offshore and were going to rewrite an electric rule book, why not start with offshore?

[brooks93]

a club doesn't have to run that course but, if it is hosting namba sanctioned event it does have to run the course.. its not as big as it sounds.

if your holding a namba race just big enough for a namba oval its time to find a new pond

[Dan Chase]

Combine rules A. & D. it will make it easier to understand that they don't "HAVE" to make a scale offshore boat and can use their own fictitious or real sponsor.

Add fictitious or real sponsor to the rule.

[brooks93]

to me D belongs under hull specs not under general but, I agree that fictitious or real sponsor should be added and I will make the change

[Dan Chase]

I would really like to reconsider keeping records, if I could drive like Dougie Twaits, I could setup a boat to own the record, would I make 4 minutes? Nope, but I would have the record! Is that the "spirit" of offshore? A variety of courses make it interesting, we almost always run a different offshore course, some are twice as long as a standard NAMBA oval.

[brooks93]

so how about changing the record to state most laps in the length of the race.. ie most laps in 4 minutes. This way you can still get records and have to actually make time.

The course can be changed.. you can put the hairpin of any corner as long as its inline with the straight and put the left and either side (front or back stretch).. The reason for the set course is no matter how you set it up its the same size for records but, can be changed to be different as far as where you put the left and the hairpin

so basicly you can have up to 6 different courses and still keep the same lenght overall

[brooks93]

since we are talking about a different part of the rules that are not posted. I have posted the rest of the rules as I have them

[Pete B.]

Kelly, on part 5 of the off shore rules is the course. Lets change that to read something like:
1.) Based on a modified NAMBA 1/10 mile course
2.) Must include 1 left hand turn no more than 2
3.) Exact course layout will be determined at the club level

Since no 2 courses have to be the same no records can be maintainedl


__________________
Pete

[brooks93]

Since no 2 courses have to be the same no records can be maintainedl

thats the point Pete.. people like myself that only run offshore would like a chance at a record. I guess I can comprimise on this but, I think it will be argued both ways.

I personally disagree with it but, if the mass's disagree with me we can make the change

[Dennis Whitt]

Slow down guys.Lets get the hull stuff down first.But here is what I REALY think we need to do so keep this in the back of your mind.
1)You must have a simple way of setting up the course that can grow with the hobby.You should just simply use the center start finish buey in the middle and then place the offshore marker in any of 4 corners....KISS,Right ?
2)When we started offshore we didnt know how long we should go for well now we do
3)Offshore still does not count twards High points.So if you like OS you are forever out of luck of ever hitting highpoints at a national event.Even team highpoints is a nightmare to calculate.
I submit that we should change the 4 minute enduro to a 14 lap race.This will take the counting of laps out and the errors or cheating yes I said CHEATING out of it. make it easier on a CD to track lead boats.And since you now have a time we can align ourselves with the oval guys as far as points,Records and you are now racing other boats instead of a clock.A new sized course is just around the corner and the offshore course can grow with that change.

[brooks93]

1) agree makes it easy to setup

3) so by changing from minutes to laps offshore can be included in highpoints?

do you think 14 laps is a bit high.. the fastest n2 was 11 and the fastest offshore out of all 5 class's was 13 in 4 minutes

also if we go to laps we have to have a set course or how else do you setup your boats

[Dennis Whitt]

Yes Kelly the only reason that offshore is not able to be entered as a HP class is because there is no way to figure points.If it is a timed event then it will go twards Highpoints.
Maybe 12 laps is better because most guys can make 12 laps and the cd only has to time the leed boat.I think it is the logical step twards OS being equal to oval racing.

[brooks93]

me like:D

[Pete B.]

You mignt not be able to get high points -agreed but if we add on to MC5 MR OFFSHORE and make a high laps award for the most laps in a 3 class entry it would be the parrallel of high points.
Now that the ball is rolling..... there is alot of work to be done. thanks for getting us started

[brooks93]

it would be 5 class's of offshore..

most of use in this neck of the woods would want to add S and T offshore as a namba class

[Pete B.]

Thats cool, we want to be inclusive not exclusive. This can work and have just as many awards for offshore as for sprint

[Dan Chase]

I would go along with laps vs time, that would allow records and points.

I would like to see a diagram of the course. From what I can figure, our club would never be able to have a nationals again or run for offshore records since we have to run inside a nitro course. We can't remove the nitro buoys, sooooo, how can we set up the course?

[LOU]

I like 4 mins and its easy to award points using the IMPBA point schedual. I do it for our offshore classes. We still use total laps for a winner but then I award points for the placing in each heat and we use that for highpoints.

[K.R.Joye]

KELLY, thanks for taking this task on. We need to refine and define NAMBA Offshore further. I think most will agree Offshore is gaining in popularity each year and its a great way to get more racers into the hobby. I personally like the 4 minute concept, it keeps things exciting, more exciting than a sprint style set-lap event. The points thing isn't an issue for me, personally i'm just out to have fun! However, Dennis is right about the lap count cheating or confusion, offshore needs a better system of keeping track of laps. I don't know if regulating it to 12-14 laps will be a cure-all. Points wise yes, some may not finish would they get a DNF or credit for the laps they completed? Enduro 4 minute Offshore is more forgiving than sprint in that respect, thats just one of the reasons Offshore is so popular.

KELLY i'm all for growing the S $ T classes. MMEU, CAFE, & Texas are big promoters of the large cell count classes, hopefully we can get more clubs to expand in the future.

[T.S.Davis]

Only remove the "and to the NAMBA Offshore Competition Rules" from 1.a. Unless you want to rewrite the whole general rules section we will be un-insured.

"decals"? Okay, look for my airbrush on the swap shop. I wont be needing it anymore. Randy can pitch his too. Infact just change it to hulls must be one color with stickers. 2a. and 2d contradict each other.

20% is impossible to calculate and will become another CD call. Oh goody! Can you here the pit grumblings "that's not 20%!" "Well, the hosting club is bias towards the team drivers"

Leave it timed. Not laps. With laps, someday offshore will be 2 minutes because we are running some new tech that is stupid fast. Points can be easily assessed with the 4 minute race. 5 boats finish a heat. They are placed somewhere on the course. 1st,2nd,3rd. Same as sprint. It only becomes an issue if it comes to a points tie at the end of the day. If you had gained all your points in offshore with 12 lap races the times will not be compareable to the sprint guys anyway. 12 laps for Q offshore at 3:50 to Doug Jr. with Q hydro at 58 seconds? There is no way to make them equal. It's not possible. If you gain enough points in offshore to take high points with your finished then your a better man than the sprint guy anyway. LOL You raced and kept a clear head for 10 times as long.

For me, I would prefer to allow for a course variety rather than pinning a course down for records. In the real world the offshore boats don't have records. Just SAW records. I know, Iknow, we're not in the real world. If the masses feel we must have an official course then the center bouy has to be offset like Kelly wrote into the course def. The center turn bouy on the spline/center line of the course has too much potential for carnage.

Ride pads are okay but a flat keel? You must mean for cats. A flat keel on a mono? Picture a 3" wide flat keel on a mono. Tasty!

Add in that 3 bouy cuts is a DQ just like sprints. Or even up it to 4 because the race is so long. Cheating gone.

Just throw these opinions in the bucket with the rest. Sorry to seem negative guys but your 2 pages deep in less than 24 hours. Where will we be tomorrow?

[brooks93]

a. Electric Offshore competition racing rules are stand alone "Electric" offshore rules. All NAMBA safety rules are enforced and still in effect.

doesn't refer to the general rules section

"decals"? Okay, look for my airbrush on the swap shop. I wont be needing it anymore. Randy can pitch his too. Infact just change it to hulls must be one color with stickers. 2a. and 2d contradict each other.

so whats the solution since you found the problem..

what about changeing decals to logos or sponsors or something like that

20% is impossible to calculate and will become another CD call. Oh goody! Can you here the pit grumblings "that's not 20%!" "Well, the hosting club is bias towards the team drivers"

again you find the problem and whats your solution

For me, I would prefer to allow for a course variety rather than pinning a course down for records. In the real world the offshore boats don't have records. Just SAW records. I know, Iknow, we're not in the real world. If the masses feel we must have an official course then the center bouy has to be offset like Kelly wrote into the course def. The center turn bouy on the spline/center line of the course has too much potential for carnage.

what dennis is saying is to make things easier so you only need to put in one extra buoy is to use the startline for the left.. which last time I looked was inline with turn 6 and 1 ..

Ride pads are okay but a flat keel? You must mean for cats. A flat keel on a mono? Picture a 3" wide flat keel on a mono. Tasty! ride pad andf flat keel are the same thing or are suppose to be.. do you have better wording for this

I can see the buoy cuts but, what do hte mass's think


thanks for the input into the bucket Terry but, lets not start to stir it either.

[Eagle]

Terry, I really see where you are going with the decals. I agree with the purposed rule, theres no reason you cant work a few "Mercury" decals into a beautiful airbrush job though. Id would look super scale!

The 20% thing might be a problem with calculations, and I think that the fact that it needs to look real needs to be emphasized. other wise someone could walk in slap a massive "Mercury Racing" decal across the deck of his boat and have 20% but look like crap. Maybe make it a minimun of three or four different sponsor decals.

As far as hull specs, that definatly need to be ironed out. Anyone ever looked to the rule book for full scale offshore, maybe they have requirments for thier hulls that would help us out.

All in all looks great this far.

[brooks93]

good point eagle..

I can see the 20% rule being a problem but, there needs to be something that requires someone to add some sort of airtwork or decals to the boat.. If somthing isn't there then no one will do it and you back to the same way it is now

[brooks93]

Dan here is the rough layout of the course.

red marks the oval buoys.

Blue marks the ofshore buoys. which the left turn buoy is the start line for oval.

either of the blue buoys can be moved to one of the black dots for there respected position..

so 2 places for the left, and 4 places for the hairpin

just hope you drive a better line that what I have drawn.. LOL

http://www.brooks93.com/CAFE3/rough%20course.jpg

[T.S.Davis]

Originally posted by brooks93
doesn't refer to the general rules section



so whats the solution since you found the problem..

what about changeing decals to logos or sponsors or something like that



again you find the problem and whats your solution



what dennis is saying is to make things easier so you only need to put in one extra buoy is to use the startline for the left.. which last time I looked was inline with turn 6 and 1 ..

ride pad andf flat keel are the same thing or are suppose to be.. do you have better wording for this

I can see the buoy cuts but, what do hte mass's think


thanks for the input into the bucket Terry but, lets not start to stir it either.

Kay! I'll try to play nice. LOL

1a. Must refer to the general competition rules. Otherwise there isn't even a definition of a mono hull. Let alone a deep vee. Without the GC rules you don't even have buoys. You could also reference the ride pad definition in the general rules for the keel flats. It's in there. I think it's considered a depression and cant be more than 5/16" deep or more than 3/4" wide. Also if there is going to be no degree requirement for "deep" vee then don't call them deep vee. Just call them mono hulls as defined by G2 on page 20.

Maybe instead of decals call them decorations. I just don't like a sticker requirement. Maybe it's just me. Randy's boats don't have Mercury stickers. Are they offshore? We also want to be carefull not to turn it into a scale class. "must look like a real offshore boat from 10 foot" means to me that it has to look like the Zynetix boat (or other) or I can't race.

MC start finish line was in the middle of the course. That's the start bouy Dennis refered to. We've had this conversation before. I don't like the left there. Novice and experienced drivers both sometimes have no choice but to take it wide. Then your into the back straight. Yikes!

[brooks93]

You could also reference the ride pad definition in the general rules for the keel flats. It's in there. I think it's considered a depression and cant be more than 5/16" deep or more than 3/4" wide.

That makes sense.. I knew it was lacking a clear definition but, could not find one either

All boats are required to have some form of sponsor decals, fictitious or real sponsor decals must cover 20% of the visible hull.

So what about changing it so its says decals or artwork.. this opens it up without allowing a plan hull.

must look like a real offshore boat from 10 foot" means to me that it has to look like the Zynetix boat (or other) or I can't race.

good point.. we are not making scale boats but, we need something there.. lets figure out a wording for this.

MC start finish line was in the middle of the course. That's the start bouy Dennis refered to. We've had this conversation before. I don't like the left there. Novice and experienced drivers both sometimes have no choice but to take it wide. Then your into the back straight. Yikes!

no not the start buoy the way it was at MC5.. the start buoy where it is a a standard namba oval.. Like the way CAFE has it setup.. Look at the diagram above

[brooks93]

1a. Must refer to the general competition rules. Otherwise there isn't even a definition of a mono hull. Let alone a deep vee. Without the GC rules you don't even have buoys. You could also reference the ride pad definition in the general rules for the keel flats. It's in there. I think it's considered a depression and cant be more than 5/16" deep or more than 3/4" wide. Also if there is going to be no degree requirement for "deep" vee then don't call them deep vee. Just call them mono hulls as defined by G2 on page 20.

thats the point Terry.. I would like to see everything the pertains to electric offshore in one section and not have to flip to 4 different section to know what it is..

so we define mono, deep vee, and cat in the offshore section.. we define the course and buoy's.. We define steps, ride pads, flat keel.

its all in one section easier to read and understand

[Dennis Whitt]

changing it to sponsor markings,Painted or decalled.
Yeah Terry it is a tighter area but if there ever was going to be a tight spot it should be right there in front of the drivers stand.That area will always be a problem because if you were in lane one comming out of turn two and there are three boats abreast you are now suddenly in lane 4 and fighting for position.Again woulnnt it make sence that that problem spot be were everyone has the greatest visibility ?

[Eagle]

Terry, you have a good point there with the graphics. Randy has som really sweet boats that are most definaly offshore. We need to find a way to state what we want without ruling out some of the amazing paint jobs that people have. I do think that some type of decaling or naming or sponsors helps to add the effect of looking "real" though. I think we want to stray away from having a fleet of plain white boat out there though. We need some great looking graphics jobs, regardless of weather they are decals, airbrush, or spray can, or a combo of any of those. Often some of the greatest looking boats use more than just paint to achieve the desired effects.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Originally posted by Eagle
I think we want to stray away from having a fleet of plain white boat out there though. We need some great looking graphics jobs, regardless of weather they are decals, airbrush, or spray can, or a combo of any of those. Often some of the greatest looking boats use more than just paint to achieve the desired effects.
I bet we can find lots of white offshore boats with just numbers on them.
IE
http://www.apba-offshore.com/pix/p4-88.jpg

[Steven Vaccaro]

Another view

[LOU]

After reading much of whats been said I think your probably best to leave the vauge wording ie Spirit,may. Develop the class guidelines but leave it to the CD and racers to say if a certain hull can run. If it can turn left it can run, No not riggers and sport Hydros but who cares if the boat has wings, Steps or a helium balloon stuffed inside. Does it really make that much difference. What you guys are talking about now is a Scale class. I have no interest or time to run a Scale class. My offshore hulls are in the "spirit" but they are not scale. On any given day my Villain both wins and loses to every type of Offshore hull from EV's to Elobos. Even lost to a tank of a Titan 29.

Don't stiffle inovations with anal rules:D

[T.S.Davis]

Originally posted by Dennis Whitt
changing it to sponsor markings,Painted or decalled.
Yeah Terry it is a tighter area but if there ever was going to be a tight spot it should be right there in front of the drivers stand.That area will always be a problem because if you were in lane one comming out of turn two and there are three boats abreast you are now suddenly in lane 4 and fighting for position.Again woulnnt it make sence that that problem spot be were everyone has the greatest visibility ?

Yes!

The guy in lane one doesn't hit the pin. He's say 8' out. How wide is a lane? Let's say it's 4' and everybody is in perfect possition. LOL 4' x 4 lanes is 16' + the 8' is 24'. Now your 6' away from the opposite straight. Now imagine there is a dead boat in that turn somewhere and your trying to get 4 boats around that pin with another boat zipping through the front straight wide open.

If you move it out of the center and the hosting club puts the left on the front straight like CAFE does then your tight spot could be 20' closer to you. This I like. in fact I would like to see the left in the front straight, 20 foot of the center line of the course, every time. It's close and everyone can see it. Just my opinion on that one.

I'm still thinking on the spirit/scale appearance thing. We are dangerously close to it becoming a scale class. None of us want that. We just want to see some effort put into these things. Not just tub with some stickers. Maybe we get specific on the V and then specify that the hull must be decorated in the "spirit" of offshore. We would just need to define "spirit".

Spirit:
Closed cockpits to have windscreen. Open cockpits to have drivers. Boats to be decorated with paint and or graphic applications (decals) which include at least two real or fictitious sponsors. All boats to have numbers printed or painted. Numbers on boat of NAMBA members must be their membership number. Numbers on N2 and P offshore hulls shall be a minimum of 1" high. Numbers for Q,S, and T offshore shall be a minumum of 2" high.

How's that smell. Might be enough to inspire guys to make some nice looking boats but not so tight that we lose guys. Just thinking out loud now.

[Pete B.]

If we leave the course layout up to the host club we can have a variety of course layouts all with merits and draw backs. Every one involved in this discussion will think his course is the best, so lets go with all the best courses, use them all! The guys that run only O/S can compete for high laps instead of high points. They are two different types of racing so lets not lump it in with sprint. MC5 had a good split from sprint to O/S including the awards lest take from that.

[T.S.Davis]

idea.

What if we just stopped trying to equate offshore to sprint?

We currently have a high points champion. Why not have a sprint champion and an Offshore Champion? The offshore champion could be based on the total number of laps for all five classes. Totally seperate deal from sprint points. Like we had at MC5.

Then if you want to use offshore to count towards team points you just asses points based on where you finish in each heat. Two guys could have 12 laps but they don't finish in the exact same spot on the course (usually). One IS in front of the other. the frony guy gets the 400 etc. With sprint you get points based on where you finished and not on your time. So you didn't have the fastest boat but you still finished first in your heats so you have a shot. The time is supposed to be used in the event of a tie. The same would be true for team points in offshore.

Then if you did end up with tie in team points you could award the team with the lowest sprint time. It still gives the sprint guys an advantage but it's better than the way it is now.

I think winning the title of "Offshore Champion" would be a much more daunting task than winning the title of "Sprint Champion". 5 classes of sprint at 1.5 minutes per heat is 22.5 minutes of racing. 5 offshore classes at 4 minutes each is 60 freekin minutes of racing. ye ha. LOL

[T.S.Davis]

Nice Pete,

Great minds think alike.

[brooks93]

LOU no one is trying to make it a scale class.. Just make it look offshore.. and if someone has to ask the CD if his boat can race then the rules are not good enough and don't explain it well enough. So I bring my boat to Canada and you let it run.. Now I go to Michigan and they dont' let it run.. See the problem

How is making it a requirement to have some form of artwork or sponsorship with drivers if open cockpit or painted windows if closed a scale class..

I have no interest or time to run a Scale class. My offshore hulls are in the "spirit" but they are not scale. On any given day my Villain both wins and loses to every type of Offshore hull from EV's to Elobos. Even lost to a tank of a Titan 29.

.Don't stiffle inovations with anal rules

LOU don't be part of the problem.. if you don't want to assist in the change then don't but, don't come in and try to stir the pot..

[Dennis Whitt]

Lou has a valid point.this is not a scale class.It is standoffscale class.
We gotta keep the 4 6 and 8 minute thing.Ayway else just does not work.
No one has mentioned a problem with S and T so I guess thats in.
Ditck the 20% thing its to hard to figure.
i think we are claoe on a new course.

[brooks93]

yes I think the course thing is actually the biggest concern right now

[LOU]

Hey Kelly, I thought twice about posting that comment because I knew it was a bit harsh. It is a valid comment, Who cares if the numbers are 1.5 inches or 2 inches, thats anal in my opinion.

The course should be able to change. At humber bay we have limited space and we don't plan on moving. Different courses at different venues would be cool. The starting procedure, the lenght of race, the points calculation. This is the kind of stuff that should be consistent.

Heres our layout at Humberbay, we use to have the left on the front but found that you get better sight lines if its on the back
http://www.lousfastrc.com/images/Course2.jpg

[brooks93]

Who cares if the numbers are 1.5 inches or 2 inches, thats anal in my opinion.

This was Terrys idea to define that part of the rule

that is a solution if you didn't care for it make your own proposal for that part of the rule so everyone can think on it. Thats what we have been doing everyone is taking one person's idea and making changes and then someone else add a word here or there till everyone agree's with it...

what your comment said.. Is what I don't want in this thread.. Not that you don't have a right to put in your input but, complaining about something and then basicly saying you don't have to time to care.. thats not any help to anyone..

we need input from everyone but, constructive input not bs

don't worry man I still love ya..


on the course idea.. If we had a High Points type award for offshore then the course wouldn't have to be the same across the board.. but, I would like to have a set offshore course for the Nats so records can be made and broken. If the host club can't support that size of a course then not records get broken that year..

just an idea guys

[Dan Chase]

I admire the way you have stuck to your guns on this one, Kelly!

I personally like the course, however with our pond, I really don't think we could fit it in. By doing away with records, it solves a lot of problems. I don't think it's fair to other clubs to set an official record course that's longer then the current NAMBA oval and just say to bad, you can't set records for offshore at your race.

[brooks93]

ya I know Dan.. I am warming up to the idea of the no records offshore but, I don't know if everyone else will.. leaving the course open to the hosting club will work but, I would hate to see them use the existing course because its boring.. anyone that has raced the Michigan or Ohio style course will admit that is a blood pumper.. MC5 was different because the had basically 2 offshore course's N2, P, and Q ran on a smaller one where S and T ran on a bigger one.. I loved it but, it can get confusing

and I will stick to my guns on this. I want change and I will not have this get derailed like the other times we started to do this

[T.S.Davis]

Pete,

Nice sketch!

I have these objectives I would like to see incorporated:

1. Offshore Champion seperate from sprint

2. Allow any course the hosting club wants to set out. I don't care about records for offshore personally. You glory hounds that want to set records should go do some sprints. I know it's not real offshore but there is reason there is no "official" APBA offshore course. No two venues are the same. The boat you set up to run in Key west will not be running the same setup in Cleveland regardless of the shape of the course.

3. add S and T

4. A system by which points can be awarded for team events.

The rest I could care less about personally.

I threw out the numbers thing to try to appease the "looks like" crowd. Your never going to get this gang to agree on what an offshore boat is. It's subjective. Are the Poker run boats offshore? I think they are. Most of them are just pleasure craft that get raced. Go tell them their plain white 200+k pleasure craft isn't offshore enough to race. Again, I know, we're not in the real world. In regards to the hull types I think much like real offshore, we should let the race itself dictate what type of hulls will be out there. We could exclude hydros and that's the rule. Doug Jr. ran an ECO hull in N2 offshore at MC5. Bet he never runs that little water bug in N2 offshore again.

Just more food guys. Mull it over.

[Dan Chase]

One of our more popular offshore courses was an "L" shape, our pond is around 1600' long by 800' the oval is in a protected area in the short section. we had almost a dead straight coming out of turn 1&2 buoy's that was close to 500' long with a slight left turn followed by a hairpin right buoy, the back section took the boats into the roughest part of the pond, around the nitro course with the standard right/left buoy on the main straight of the oval. The boats were so far out in the back section, you could only tell what direction they were going by the rooster tail! You Midwest boys would have loved it with your S&T Offshore boats! :D

There are a lot of cool courses that can be run in offshore, I can't remember if CAFE did it, but look at MI, they said screw the records, lets have a cool offshore course!

[Dan Chase]

I pretty much agree with Terry except, I would rather see S Offshore introduced first, if it takes off across the country, maybe then introduce T Offshore. I would also support a class similar to the spec offshore the WI guys run, Offshore needs at least one afordable/entry class. I think we can come up with a "sport" scale rule to keep the appearance of the boats constant with the "spirit" it will just take some time and bouncing ideas back and fourth.

Now for the 'ol "can 'o' worms". Length restrictions!

Let it fly!!! :p

[Eagle]

Pagemaster/Steve and Terry, I see what you are both saying about the plain white boats. I was a bit to general with my last comment, I think though that we need to have a few little scale touched on the hulls, like what you posted Steve there are some numbers and sponsor names on there, Im fine with that, Im not saying it has to be all out, just look a little bit scale thats all. I meant more to stay away from boats that are all one color, like all white, right from the manufacturer with no detailing what so ever thats all.

[brooks93]

I can go along with the different course.. Where the club can decide the course.

Offshore needs at least one afordable/entry class

P offshore is the class or even N2.. A SS1 P offshore took 3rd at MC5

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by brooks93
P offshore is the class or even N2.. A SS1 P offshore took 3rd at MC5

P Offshore isn't an affordable entry level class, if the SS1 had won the race, it "may" carry more weight, but racing hoping the other guys thermal or fry the speed control isn't really being competitive, is it?

Even N2 Offshore is tough without a BL setup.

Someday the full brunt of the top dogs of NAMBA will come to the Midwest, then tell me how competitive a SS1 is!

[brooks93]

so a SS1 taking 3rd out of 24 people that raced it doesn't hold any weight.. LOL

The thing with offshore Dan as I am sure you know the fastest boat doesn't win.. Its the guy the has a boat that will launch from out of the hole, turn good in traffic left and right, has straight away speed without blowing off in traffic, can accel off the turns and doesn't cut any buoys and do that for 3, 4 minutes heats while battleing for postion with 6 or 7 other guys.

bring the top dogs on.. they won't be ready for us running the course that they do now..

[Pete B.]

I think Dan meant something like a P spec. offshore, granted they run almost as fast as a brushless P offshore a beginner might feel intimidated. That is a whole other can of worms. Lets deal with that topic later and finish what we or Kelly started.
Is your proposed rules change at the top of this thread up to date on the new ideas? There has been a lot of input since last nite. If so what is the next item to look at?

[Pete B.]

I reviewing part D. with respect to the decals and the whole numbers or radical paint jobs, can it be worded:
All boats must have either some form of sponsor decals (fictitious or real) or race numbers or multi-color paint schemes to keep in the spirit of offshore

This would allow for boats like pleasure craft that do poker runs, some of the non factory sponsored hulls that just have numbers and those that have full sponsorship

[Dan Chase]

I applaud that drivers accomplishment, it would have taken exceptional driving and reliability to place that high. I would bet that a number of BL setups had problems in one heat or another. In almost every circumstance that I have seen a SS1 place in the top three, it was because of the reliability and driving near perfect 3 heats, not the speed. BL setups are getting more reliable all the time, what happens to those racers when the BL is as reliable as a brushed setup? Why don't you come to the Nats this year and see for yourself?


Originally posted by brooks93
bring the top dogs on.. they won't be ready for us running the course that they do now..

I wouldn't count on it! These guys are the best because they can adapt faster to changing water, setup their boats to the peak of it's performance and then drive an inch off the buoy's lap after lap.

[brooks93]

its up to date as of last night.. but, I havent' changed it yet.. what do I need to change again.

[brooks93]

ok dan back on track..

[brooks93]

All boats must have either some form of sponsor decals (fictitious or real) or race numbers or multi-color paint schemes to keep in the spirit of offshore

sounds good to me.. that would allow paint or stickers but, it also needs to cover the windshields or drivers

[brooks93]

Closed cockpits to have windscreen. Open cockpits to have drivers. Boats to be decorated with paint and or graphic applications (decals) which include at least two real or fictitious sponsors. All boats to have numbers printed or painted. Numbers on boat of NAMBA members must be their membership number. Numbers on N2 and P offshore hulls shall be a minimum of 1" high. Numbers for Q,S, and T offshore shall be a minumum of 2" high.

I like this also but, not sure if a min number size is required.. also what if the person is non namba?

[Pete B.]

Ok 2D might need some tweaking -see my last post. If you agree to the different courses, that needs to be changed and we need to deal with the records portion

[Pete B.]

How about numbers visable from 10ft. same as the distance the boat needs to look like a real one. The size of the # decals should depend on the hull size. Too much writing to cover all the hulls/classes
Who cares what the # is when the boat is going 30mph past the CD he/she can't read it anyway

[brooks93]

I was thinking the exact same thing Pete

so something like this

Closed cockpits to have windscreen. Open cockpits to have drivers. Boats to be decorated with paint and or graphic applications (decals) which include at least two real or fictitious sponsors. All boats to have numbers printed or painted. Numbers on boat of NAMBA members must be their membership number. Numbers must be visible from a distance of 10'

So we combine c and d

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by Pete B.
I reviewing part D. with respect to the decals and the whole numbers or radical paint jobs, can it be worded:
All boats must have either some form of sponsor decals (fictitious or real) or race numbers or multi-color paint schemes to keep in the spirit of offshore

This would allow for boats like pleasure craft that do poker runs, some of the non factory sponsored hulls that just have numbers and those that have full sponsorship

I think that works, maybe add:

All boats must have either some form of sponsor decals (fictitious or real) AND race numbers or Minimum of three color paint schemes AND race numbers to keep in the spirit of offshore.

On page 1 of the NAMBA rule book it already states that the boats are REQUIRED to have the drivers NAMBA number on their boat. There are exceptions for Offshore & Sport Hydro that allow smaller NAMBA numbers and the use of a larger number to duplicate a real boat. How often have you ever seen that rule enforced??? ;)

[Dan Chase]

I guess we were all thinking on the same page ... literally!

I agree, the number height should be different, the 10 foot rule works for me! I would add Kelly's idea that the number "may" be the number on the real boat if the model duplicates a real boat.

[brooks93]

thats was my idea? LOL

ok so how do we want it worded.

Closed cockpits to have windscreen. Open cockpits to have drivers. Boats to be decorated with paint and or graphic applications (decals) which include at least two real or fictitious sponsors. All boats to have numbers printed or painted. Numbers on boat of NAMBA members may be their membership number or the numbers of the real boat if the model duplicates a real boat. Namba numbers must be visible from a distance of 10'

I also think we need to add this back for reason that Terry stated.. with out referring to the general rules nothing is defined not even driver edict

1. General Rules
a. Electric Offshore racing rules are intended as a supplement to the NAMBA General Powerboat Rules of Competition and to the NAMBA Electric Offshore Racing Rules. In case of a conflict the Electric Offshore Racing Rules shall prevail.

[Pete B.]

That sounds good. that should include alot of boats and ideas and it covers boats that want to be true to scale.

[brooks93]

K I will change it for now so everyone can view it.. Pete can you edit the rules you posted so we dont' have conflicting ones.

[Pete B.]

I put them there so I did not have to go back to page 1. I'll remove them now.
I think we still need to work on the course part

[brooks93]

ok lets get the wording down for the course and then for the Offshore High Points type award

[brooks93]

LOL Pete your scaring me

[Pete B.]

Great minds.....:rolleyes:

[brooks93]

5. Race Courses: is a standard NAMBA oval with a hairpin buoy 60’ from turn 1,3,4 or 6 (sites discretion) with a left turn buoy will be placed 85’ from turn 3 and 4 or 1 and 6 (sites discretion) and will be placed inside of the course no less the 10’ and no more then 20’.

so how do we want to word this to allow clubs to run a offshore course that will have a left turn inline with the outside turns so not to get boats to close and have a head on.

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by brooks93
Closed cockpits to have windscreen. Open cockpits to have drivers. Boats to be decorated with paint and or graphic applications (decals) which include at least two real or fictitious sponsors. All boats to have numbers printed or painted. Numbers on boat of NAMBA members may be their membership number or the numbers of the real boat if the model duplicates a real boat. Namba numbers must be visible from a distance of 10'

YES!!! :D :D :D

[Pete B.]

Race course: will be based on a standard NAMBA 10th mile oval with at least 1 left turn and 1 hairpin turn. The course design will be at the descretion of the hosting club. Considerations need to be made for the safety of the racers and the boats. Clubs offering S &T classes can further modify the course to meet the needs of the larger boats.
Any records for a particular course can be maintained at the club level. Points for 1,2,3rd place for each class will be awarded with the standard NAMBA points schedual. In addition to an offshore high points champ their will be a high laps champ also.

[brooks93]

I would like to commend everyone on there input so far.. We have done more in 24 hours then we have gotten in 2 years.. We have done this by thinking open minded and staying on track..

I thank you and ask you to keep up with the good work.. Together we will get this through to a vote.

[Dan Chase]

Ooops, spoke to soon! add (in bold)

Boats to be decorated with multi color paint graphics and or graphic applications (decals) which include at least two real or fictitious sponsors.

That should keep those $@%# bleach bottle boats out! ;)

[brooks93]

In addition to an offshore high points champ their will be a high laps champ also.

thats the same thing.. the high lap winner will be the high points winner..

there really isn't a high points in offshore.. its all based on total laps over the 5 class's

But I like the rest

[brooks93]

can't do that Dan some real offshore boats are all white with graphics or just a name and number

[Pete B.]

NOW NOW DAN
We have to allow those bleach bottles. I think if they have no colors they need to have numbers, if they have multi colored paint or graphics then sponsor decals should be optional.

[brooks93]

I agree

[Pete B.]

thats the same thing.. the high lap winner will be the high points winner..
If the only boat to finish a particular flight in a heat only does 6 laps he still gets 400 points for 1st. A boat in another flight might do 10 laps and get 2nd 300 points. The second boat might end up with high laps and not high points. Points are awarded on the finish in your heat.

[Dan Chase]

Then you need to remove the "or" Right now it reads

Boats to be decorated with paint and or graphic applications (decals) which include at least two real or fictitious sponsors.

I could paint my boat all white and meet the rules.

We need to close the loop holes! ;)

[Pete B.]

I could paint my boat all white and meet the rules
YUP just put some # on and your good.

[Dan Chase]

Pete's right, unless we have a DNF for boats that don't finish the four minutes regardless of laps completed.

[brooks93]

yes you could paint your boat all white but when you follow the rest of it.. you will have numbers and at least 2 sponsor graphics or stickers

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by Pete B.
YUP just put some # on and your good.

Is that what we really want?

[brooks93]

I see what your saying Pete.. so its should be then only high points and incase of a tie it would go to laps or should it be the other way around.

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by brooks93
yes you could paint your boat all white but when you follow the rest of it.. you will have numbers and at least 2 sponsor graphics or stickers

Not the way it reads now, Kelly, the "or" means you wouldn't need the sponsors, just a coat of one color and a number.

[brooks93]

YUP just put some # on and your good.

your forgetting

which include at least two real or fictitious sponsors.

so the all white boat would have at least 2 sponsors and numbers

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by brooks93
I see what your saying Pete.. so its should be then only high points and incase of a tie it would go to laps or should it be the other way around.

I would go with laps, but award points for the postion so offshore can be counted in total high points for the race.

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by brooks93
your forgetting

which include at least two real or fictitious sponsors.

so the all white boat would have at least 2 sponsors and numbers

Kelly, read it carefully, with the "or" you would not need the sponsor decals.

[brooks93]

Boats to be decorated with paint and or graphic applications (decals) which include at least two real or fictitious sponsors.

but the which include part means

it would have to have paint or decals of sponsors and numbers

[brooks93]

ok so how do we word it then

what about this

Boats to be decorated with paint and or by graphic applications (decals) which must include at least two real or fictitious sponsors.

[Dan Chase]

Ah, OK your right!

Sorry I'm very sensitive to the "or's" that's how the rules got so screwed up in the first place.

:D :D :D

OK. let's move on! :p

[Dan Chase]

Yes, I like that last one better, it's more to the point ;)

[brooks93]

Boats to be decorated with paint and or by graphic applications (decals) which must include at least two real or fictitious sponsors.

would this make it easier?

[brooks93]

done

[Dan Chase]

MAN!!! This thread is like a chat room, I'm to old to keep up!

What is that, 3 pages in the last half hour! It must be a RRR record!

[brooks93]

ok this is how it reads now

Closed cockpits to have windscreen. Open cockpits to have drivers. Boats are to be decorated with paint and or by graphic applications (decals) which must include at least two real or fictitious sponsors. All boats are to have numbers printed or painted. Numbers on boat of NAMBA members may be their membership number or the numbers of the real boat if the model duplicates a real boat. Namba numbers must be visible from a distance of 10'

[Pete B.]

Kelly, the high laps award has been in place for most races, I think we should keep it and add the O/S high points award.
in the last post change "NAMBA numbers" to all numbers must be visable from 10 ft., this covers the event that the racer does not have the namba number on the boat

[brooks93]

ok back to the course.. if we do points then we use laps to decide in a tie and if its still a tie then there is a drive off between the two people.

I kinda like the laps better because the person with the most laps should get the award

[Dan Chase]

Kelly, I like that. Not tobe a pain in the A$$, but maybe we should drop the or the numbers of the real boat if the model duplicates a real boat.

and just leave it as or fictitious numbers. I can think of quite a few really nice boats that are in the spirit of offshore but have some random number painted on them.

Mine are all vinyl and I have a cutter so it dosen't effect me, but...

[Dan Chase]

You guy's do know that there is NO NAMBA rule that say's anything about high point's at all, it's one of those good old boy rules, so first, we might want to consider defining what high point is. Almost every race I have been to it's done differently.

[brooks93]

good point.. my thing is why the need for 2 awards.. you get awards by class for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. why do we need a over all of that and one of who had the most laps.. in my eyes its the same thing

the offshore champion is the guy that has the most laps

[Pete B.]

If you award first three places by points from 3 heats a tie should be broken by total laps. In the event this does not resolve the tie, a 4min. run-off should take place by the boats tied.
This is how a tie in MC5 was settled. (C. Fine/D. Newland)

Off shore is different the guy who has the most laps for the day should be recognised as well, it's a huge feat as you know.

[brooks93]

yes and I liked the run off.. thought that was a nice idea

[brooks93]

here is my thinking say you got 2 guys that are never in the same heat. (hey it happens) and 1 guys gets first by getting 10 laps each heat but, the second guys gets second by pulling 12 laps each heat..

so the slower guy with 30 laps gets the high points while the guy with 36 laps gets nothing

so really with a 4 minute race you don't have a 1,2, or 3 place by finish you have a 1,2,3 by total laps over 3 heats and you award points to the 1,2,3 place guys with the most laps in that class

[Dan Chase]

I'm getting confused on the high points, are they total laps for "all" the offshore classes combined and the points for total high points including sprint?

[brooks93]

lets not worry about high points for sprint with offshore right now..

basicly what we are talking about is a over all champion for offshore. which in my eyes should be the person with the most total laps over the 5 class's

I don't think we will be able to get most of the sprint guys to agree to allow offshore points in the high points as they are now

[Pete B.]

Dan, MMEU made us declaire out picks for individual H/P weeks prior to the race, this was blind to other racers so you had to pick your strong classes not the class with the least # of entrants. I thought it was a fair system and worked great. The # of classes to determine high points should be based on the # of classes offered each day or maybe only 2 classes a day so a guy that does not have $100,000 :D can stand a chance

[brooks93]

I think with MC5 you had to run 2 class's a day to be able to run for high points

[Pete B.]

basicly what we are talking about is a over all champion for offshore. which in my eyes should be the person with the most total laps over the 5 class's
Maybe it should be 3 classes, they all run about the same # of laps, this would include people who don't run S & T

Two classes is fair but that is a sprint thing

[brooks93]

if you do that then someone could run Q, S, and T which usally have less entrys and compete with someone running N2, P, and Q which are always flooded with entrys

Thats why we have always done it as all or nothing

[Dan Chase]

Pete, that's how we did it at the Nats last year for team high points.

Kelly, I think we do have to consider sprint high points, at last years Nats Doug Twaits won high points, if offshore would have counted, Dick Crowe would have tied Dougie for overall wins.

In most districts, guys that race offshore also race sprint.

[Pete B.]

They still run about the same # of laps, even in sprint I've seen some classes flooded with entrants have some heats with only 2-3 racers due to scratches. The guy that finishes 1st still gets 400 points, while the guy in the heat that had 7 boats says SH*&.
Thats racing

[brooks93]

ok let me ask you this then

if lets say I run 5 class of offshore and 1 sprint class and I take first in all of them and pete runs all sprint and takes all first

wheres the tie breaker? can't compare lap times

[Pete B.]

Offshore high points and sprint high points are separate. Apples and oranges. The Idea is to recognise offshore as being a different kind of racing with equal awards

[brooks93]

i agree but, my only problem with it is the guy that gets high points in offshore might not be the guy with the most laps overall.. I think we need to reconize the guy that was able to keep everything intact and run a fast clean race for 60 minutes of racing..

to me if there are 2 awards the high points will out weight the real champion which is the guy with the most laps

[Pete B.]

Thats why there should be 2 O/S awards high points and high laps.

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by brooks93
ok let me ask you this then

if lets say I run 5 class of offshore and 1 sprint class and I take first in all of them and pete runs all sprint and takes all first

wheres the tie breaker? can't compare lap times

In the event of a tie for overall high points, the tie will be broken by going to the 7th class and on down until the tie is eventually broken.

So if choosing 6 classes determines the high points and there is a tie, the drivers choose a 7th race, if there is still a tie they choose there 8th race and so on until the tie is broken.

I think that's why we need to first determine what high point is? The last two Nats, high points was all the points from all the eligible classes combined, this of course gave the advantage to the guys that run nearly every class.

[brooks93]

what if all I ran was the 6 class's

[brooks93]

I can agree on the 2 awards but, I think more emphasis should be on the total lap award

LOL at page 8 I am going to bed.. 6 pages in one day is enough for me

[Pete B.]

We're getting side tracked, lets keep the high points separate(between sprint and O/S) and deal with the O/S stuff for now

Thats kool Kelly the point is another O/S racer might be happy with the other award......2 happy people see this can work:D

[brooks93]

LOL ya Dan what Pete said..

ding ding ding page 8

[Dan Chase]

I'm out, the chopper build off is on, I'll catch up on the next 5 or 6 pages in an hour! :D

[Pete B.]

Good Night

[Dick Crowe]

Nice work guys,
Thanks for showing me the way to this thread Kelly! I'd have been here sooner if that "view new posts" thing was behaving. Just too many forums to not have it working!

It's probably better I came in late. You guys have done a good job.

Good night,
Dick

[LOU]

Yep You guys are working it and no Anal Rules:D

Offshore should be won by total laps. We only use points so that the guys that run mostly offshore classes have a chance at club high points for the year.

Last Q-Offshore Race we had, Neil Reesor won the first race with 13.75 laps. I lost a rudder at lap 6.5 and placed 4th out of 6 boats. 2nd heat, Neil and I tied at 12.75 laps. 3rd heat I won with 13.25 laps and Neil fliped at lap 7 and placed 5th

Heres the breakdown

Neil total laps- 33.5--1st place
Pete total laps-32.5--2nd place

Points Breakdown

Pete 169,400,400 total 969
Neil 400,400,127--total 927

Neil is still the offshore winner and I am happy.

Now heres a question, Below is a pic of My Villain it has no cockpit but the front light blue area could be considered a wind screen? Do I have to paint it black?

http://www.lousfastrc.com/download/VilFrontSideTop_small.JPG

Heres a link to a bigger pic
http://www.lousfastrc.com/images/Team%20Arnold%202003%20Lineup/Villain/VilFrontSideTop.JPG

[T.S.Davis]

8 freekin pages. I didn't even read them all. No time. Gotta fly.

You can't award offshore classes by points unless you go back to laps. It needs to be laps. In the event of a tie you would go to the points. We want to avoid a run off. It's equivelant to running another heat.

You also can't count points awarded for offshore towards high points for the event. Sprint points and offshore points will be apples and cinder blocks. I only suggested the points system for those occations when a venue has a team competition. If you best 5 events for a weekend were all offshore and Dougie tied you with the same exact score does he win because he had the fastest heat? Apples and cinder blocks.

If a venue wants to award an offshore points champ that is their perogitive. We don't need a rule for that.

On the supplement to the general rules thing make sure to take out "and to the offshore rules". We don't want nitro offshore stuffed down our throats. Ever.

For the Offshore Champion just make it highest number of laps in offshore. Don't require a racer to run all 5 classes. We don't make a sprinter run every sprint class. A guy with no T boat would still have a shot just like a guy with no S hydro has a shot at sprint points.

Entry level offshore we worry about in the future. IMO O spec offshore. 600 motors on 8 cells. Later. Much later. LOL

8 pages already. Sheesh. Don't you psycos sleep?

[T.S.Davis]

Last heat of the day we ran Q offshore. Dougie was on my butt for 12.25 laps. I still finished ahead of him. I never pulled away and he never caught me. I consider him one of the best pin sqweezers in the business. He ran on our course and didn't woop up on us too bad. Variable courses will result in home pond advantage. Sweet!

Like Kelly said, bring on the big dogs. Do they get much bigger than Dougie, Dennis and the Fines? (I'm sensitive LOL)

We need to stipulate that the course needs to be "not smaller" than a standard NAMBA oval. Review the wording found in the Deep Vee competition section to see what I'm talking about.

[LOU]

Sprint points and offshore points will be apples and cinder blocks

I don't think they are Terry. Points are awarded for a certain placing in sprint. Once placing has been decieded in offshore you can award the same points. I think Offshore points should go toward High points If the racer chooses to do so. A Win is a Win is a Win.

When the rules are finalized it would be appropriate to create a poll so everyone can vote. It would be a great indicator of general acceptance.

[brooks93]

Points are awarded for a certain placing in sprint. Once placing has been decieded in offshore you can award the same points. I think Offshore points should go toward High points If the racer chooses to do so. A Win is a Win is a Win.

it would be nice trust Me I would like that myself.. The problem lie's which is why it won't happen.. And we are getting off track again.

heres the problem.. If someone runs 5 offshore 1 sprint and takes all first. Now another guy run 6 sprints and gets all first.. How dod you decide to split tie.. You can't compare lap times.. and If I only ran 6 class total then you can't go to another race..

this is the problem and why it won't work.. So lets just stike to offshore having there OWN high POINT, and HIGH Lap award.

Loo as far as you windshield on the villian.. I would say if it was I its fine because its a different color then the rest of the hull.



ok guys back on track.. we are not worried about sprint High Points.. ONLY OFFSHORE High Points right now

[brooks93]

pages already. Sheesh. Don't you psycos sleep?

whats that

[Eagle]

Wow I woke up to four new pages this morning! You guys did amazing!

Closed cockpits to have windscreen. Open cockpits to have drivers. Boats are to be decorated with paint and or by graphic applications (decals) which must include at least two real or fictitious sponsors. All boats are to have numbers printed or painted. Numbers on boat of NAMBA members may be their membership number or the numbers of the real boat if the model duplicates a real boat. Namba numbers must be visible from a distance of 10'

Perfrect! That way you cover all the boats, from poker run plain hulls with numbers to elaborate paint schemes.

Im not much into racing, so ive stayed out of the course and high points debate, but maybe you could at the end of the weekend, award an "Offshore...something" to the guy who might not have lead the pack all weekend, but whose performance stood out. His boat stayed on the water all weekend with no breaks, crashes or blow overs, and was just over all very consistent and adapted well to the changing conditions. Keeping with the "spirit of offshore" you know, just a thought.

[brooks93]

found a problem


a. Offshore hulls must resemble an authentic Offshore APBA / SBI / UIM hull from a distance of 10 feet and must be a Deep-Vee or Offshore Catamaran type hull.

if we leave must look like in there then we are conterdicting ourselves with the real or fictitious part of C

c. Closed cockpits to have windscreen. Open cockpits to have drivers. Boats are to be decorated with paint and or by graphic applications (decals) which must include at least two real or fictitious sponsors. All boats are to have numbers printed or painted. Numbers on boat of NAMBA members may be their membership number or the numbers of the real boat if the model duplicates a real boat. Namba numbers must be visible from a distance of 10'

[brooks93]

Eagle nice Idea but, not practical on a national level.. besides now your talking 3 individual awards above and beyond the 1st,2nd,and 3rd place awards

[Eagle]

Yea I see what you mean. Just a thought.

What if you change A to read "may resemble" in stead of must...Not sure im happy with that but it might work.

[brooks93]

Ya thats what I was thinking.. If we changed A. to say may look like then D.. will make them look like what we want anyway

[Eagle]

Exactly. That way, you are free to create your own boat, mix designs from real offshore boats and come up with something original but still very much offshore.

[brooks93]

going to have to see how the guys feel about that..

one of that has to change

[LOU]

So lets just stike to offshore having there OWN high POINT, and HIGH Lap award.

Don't agree with this and I never will

Your scenario of a tie is a BIG what if and I'd be suprised to see it happen.

The guy that chooses to race 2 classes of offshore and 3 sprint classes will never win any High Points if we leave it this way

[LOU]

I don't think you have to change anything the wording is Must RESEMBLE, Resemble from 10 feet away.

[brooks93]

well thats saying must resemble a real offshore boat.. but then we say real or fake offshore boat in D..

its not a big what if.. it would of happened at MC5 and Dan said it would of happened when they hosted the nats

Like I said Lou I would love for offshore to count towards high points since that is all I run.. so I am for it but, I know what all the sprint guys are goign to say

[LOU]

well thats saying must resemble a real offshore boat.. but then we say real or fake offshore boat in

Yes but a fictitious sponsor logo can resemble a real offshore sponsor logo from 10 feet away



its not a big what if.. it would of happened at MC5 and Dan said it would of happened when they hosted the nats

I'd like to see the heat sheets to support that. Would it not be better to come up with an acceptable way to break a tie?


Like I said Lou I would love for offshore to count towards high points since that is all I run.. so I am for it but, I know what all the sprint guys are goign to say

I think you'd be suprised to find out that the majority would want it included.

[Pete B.]

Kelly, I think we're saying real or fictitous sponsors not the boat or hull it self. If the rules read "may resemble" it will be the same as it is currently and we will have solved nothing.
Lets keep O/S and sprint points separate!
And yes we were up late working on this for the last 2 days. Lets stay on track and finish up and then re-evaluate and then take all the critisim and make changes from there

[brooks93]

oh I see what you guys are saying.. the must is for the hulls and the real or fake is for the sponsors.. got ya lets move on

[brooks93]

1. General Rules

a. Electric Offshore racing rules are intended as a supplement to the NAMBA General Powerboat Rules of Competition and to the NAMBA Electric Offshore Racing Rules. In case of a conflict the Electric Offshore Racing Rules shall prevail.

2. Hull Specifications

a. Offshore hulls must resemble an authentic Offshore APBA / SBI / UIM hull from a distance of 10 feet and must be a Deep-Vee or Offshore Catamaran type hull.

b. Stepped hulls, ride pads, or flat keel will be allowed on both types of hull.

c. Closed cockpits to have windscreen. Open cockpits to have drivers. Boats are to be decorated with paint and or by graphic applications (decals) which must include at least two real or fictitious sponsors. All boats are to have numbers printed or painted. Numbers on boat of NAMBA members may be their membership number or the numbers of the real boat if the model duplicates a real boat. All numbers on the boat should be visible from 10ft.

this is what we have so far

I think we need to change the general to say something like this

a. Electric Offshore racing rules are intended as a supplement to the NAMBA General Powerboat Rules of Competition and to the NAMBA Electric Offshore Racing Rules. In case of a conflict the Electric Offshore Racing Rules shall prevail.

[Pete B.]

Nice work Kelly, that last statement abute NAMBA # I think should read; All numbers on the boat should be visible from 10ft. This would cover boats that do not have NAMBA #'s but some other fictitous #

[LOU]

a. Electric Offshore racing rules are intended as a supplement to the NAMBA General Powerboat Rules of Competition and to the NAMBA Electric Offshore Racing Rules. In case of a conflict the Electric Offshore Racing Rules shall prevail.

Looks good

[brooks93]

ok so I will make the change

so is everyone happy with the top half of the new rules?

[Pete B.]

Kelly see my last post I added something
your 10 steps ahead of me

[brooks93]

good catch pete we must of over looked that last night

made the change

off to work I will catch up with it all later.. we should be on page 20 by then .LOL

[Pete B.]

This is your project, this should not move on with out you

[T.S.Davis]

How can Offshore electric racing rules be a suppliment to NAMBA Electric Offshore racing rules?

If the masses support awarding points for offshore to count towards high points for an event then I would get on board. I suppose in the event that there really wasa tie we could award it to the racer that had the fastest heat of the weekend. Advantage sprint guy but what's the likelyhood? So if an offshore junky knew he wanted to take a shot at high points he would need to back up his points with one smokin hot Q hydro heat.

Just make sure class wins and offshore champ are laps.

[Eagle]

Yea you guys are right, if it reads may resemble we have mad no headway. I think its good now though as Brooks posted above.

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by Pete B.
Nice work Kelly, that last statement abute NAMBA # I think should read; All numbers on the boat should be visible from 10ft. This would cover boats that do not have NAMBA #'s but some other fictitous #



Actually, the rules right now say we HAVE to have NAMBA numbers on the boats, in the sport hydro section you are allowed to use small NAMBA numbers if you use another number other then your NAMBA number. Randy told this was an insurance thing, not sure about that my self.

But I agree, ANY number if it's the ONLY number should be visible from a distance 10'.

Maybe it should read:

Any PRIMARY numbers on the boat should be visible from 10ft. This would cover boats that have both a NAMBA number and fictitous number.

Randy's boats all have his NAMBA number and a lot of them have another number for a case in point.

[Dan Chase]

I agree with Terry, offshore SHOULD be counted in overall high points, that's always been a major beef!

I kind of think were putting the horse before the cart is we don't start addressing the problems and rewriting the general rule book.

There's nothing wrong with trying to hammer out the offshore rules, but is we plan to have an electric only rule book, we will need to revise everything the refers back to it.

[Pete B.]

Terry, it sounds like you are still viewing this as one high points champ. For the offshore side or the event there should be 2 awards high points (off shore classes only!) and high laps. The sprint classes will still have their high points champ, never the two shall mix!. Some guys like Dick C. DTjr. etc. might take both thats racing. This will give the O/S guys (those who only run O/S) more than just one award, being that if the course layout becomes the choice of the host club no records can be maintained at a national level. For some like Kelly the high laps is more important, others might favor high points
For scoring at an event; if there is a tie in a heat for a place ie 1,2,3,4 the boat in the lead position for the # of laps will be the deciding factor(ie if you and Dennis both had 10.25 laps and your boat was in front of dennis, you would recieve the pointe for 1st. Dennis for 2nd) now we can award points as well as laps to each contestant. As with sprint racing overall 1st place might not go to the boat that was the fastest only the most consistant. The high laps award will go to the contestant with the most laps total of the classes selected. In the event of a tie for high laps award revert to the contestant with the most points
Knowing that you were up most of the night at MC5 talleying scores, this is a little more work but not much.

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by T.S.Davis

Like Kelly said, bring on the big dogs. Do they get much bigger than Dougie, Dennis and the Fines? (I'm sensitive LOL)


No, they don't get much better then Dougie, just imagine 8 other guys doing the same thing and some of them are quite good at offshore like Dick Crowe and Greg Schweers. I'm not trying to take anything away from you guys, but if there were 8 guys like Dougie out there all running BL like I used in the context, where does that put the guy with a SS1? What were you running Terry? BL?

BTW: I think Dougie is one of the top 3 sprint racers in the country, but he's not an offshore specialist, some of these other guys are!

Off to work now, I'll catch up on pages 10-20 when I get home! :p ;)

[Pete B.]

Dan if a racer is only a single event racer he has no NAMBA # and won't be able to follow the rule, I think by wording it the way it is it includes your boats and Randy's How many boats will have a secondary #. If a guy does have a true to scale or form copy of a real O/S boat this rule would cover him from not having to put a NAMBA # on it and ruin the look. Having Your # on a boat serves no purpose other than living in the past, the CD can not see it to make a call on a boat while it's racing. BTW I have my # on all of my boats.
I agree that all the rules need updating, at least this one will be 95% compatable. It might need some tweaking

[Dan Chase]

Pete, what about the guys that split there races between offshore and sprint? If Offshore dose not count towards high points, then they are screwed.

We are REQUIRED to have NAMBA numbers on the boats, including 1/8 scale, it a RULE! We just don't enforse it, if were going to do this lets do it right and either get rid of the rule or make an allowance for it in the offshore rules.

We need to be inclusive, not separate offshore from sprint racing.

Now I'm really off to work! :D

[Pete B.]

if were going to do this lets do it right and either get rid of the rule or make an allowance for it in the offshore rules.
Dan you your self said the rules need to be fixed. I'm looking into your future. In the crystal prop I see newer more progressive ways of thinking, rules ment to be inclusive not exclusive. See where I'm going. Now that the door has been opened lets walk thur it and get comfy. I think everyone agrees that we need to work on the rules.

[Dennis Whitt]

After alot of thought hreres the deal.You just cant get Oval and offshore to match up.if there is s tie it will alway go to the sprint guy.So what needs to happen is that we instatute offshore highpoints at the national level.This part of our sport deserves this recognition.
And if you are on a team you can choose offshore as a highpoints class.Scoring twards highpoints would be calculated based on were you are in place on the course as Terry described.
As far as the course itself,I feel you must have a standard course as far as size.National records are important to alott of guys besides us 5 hashing it out here.
Keep it comming !!!

[Dick Crowe]

So far I don't see anything that scares me. That's good I guess! If you could figure out a way to incorperate High Points with sprint racing great, if not, that's fine too. I think that offhsore is a lot harder class to win in then the sprint classes. More time to make a mistake! If it were an addition to the HP then it would be a good and legitimate addition.

Oh ya, the Numbers thing. I don't meant to be nit picky, but I have a number on the back of all of my boats which corresponds to the program on my radio. It's only meant for me to make sure I've got my radio on the correct program, it's about 1/2 inch tall. You won't DQ me if it's not visible at 10 feet will you? BTW, I do have my NAMBA numbers on my boat and they are big and red and can been seen from a lot farther then 10 feet. Would this be legal or do I have to make my radio number big too?

Good work guys,
Dick

[brooks93]

Dick we are not saying all numbers must be seen at 10 feet.. Just the Namba number or the numbers of the real boat if your coping one.. so you personel number for you radio wouldn't matter.. at least in my eyes

[brooks93]

I agree on the offshore only High Points.. We should have that.. I just can't think of a fair way to combine them with sprint and keep it fair for both sprint and offshore racers.. So lets just seperate them from each other and have seperate awards for high points.

[Dick Crowe]

Originally posted by brooks93
Dick we are not saying all numbers must be seen at 10 feet.. Just the Namba number or the numbers of the real boat if your coping one.. so you personel number for you radio wouldn't matter.. at least in my eyes

Perfect! Just double checking.

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by Pete B.
Dan you your self said the rules need to be fixed. I'm looking into your future. In the crystal prop I see newer more progressive ways of thinking, rules ment to be inclusive not exclusive. See where I'm going. Now that the door has been opened lets walk thur it and get comfy. I think everyone agrees that we need to work on the rules.

I like the way your thinking, Pete, I just don't want to see loop holes in the rules. I have been saying for at least 4 or 5 years we need to revamp the rule book. I don't want that aspect to get lost in translation! ;)

[B.K. Foster]

from reading through all the pages of communication, this drive for ammending the Offshore Rules has progressed in good fashion... I am quite impressed Kelly...

Keep it up guys... :D

[brooks93]

thanks Brian but, I am not the only one.. I am just the A%& thats trying to keep everyone on track.. LOL

[brooks93]

Ok time for work.. back to the course..

since Dennis brought it up I am with him we need a set course.. from what I have heard even the standard NAMBA oval will probably bigger the next go around so the clubs that can only run a oval now will have to find a new site..

so lets find a course that will allow offshore to strecth there legs and run sprint speeds for 4 minutes

[brooks93]

You won't DQ me if it's not visible at 10 feet will you

Dick the depends if your more then 10 feet infront of me at the end of the race..:D

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by brooks93
from what I have heard even the standard NAMBA oval will probably bigger the next go around so the clubs that can only run a oval now will have to find a new site..


REALLY??? Thats news to me!
And who is it that speaks for the country? It sure saves us a lot of work it would take to get the rulebook on track.

[Pete B.]

I'm with Dan whois trying to make the standard oval bigger? If clubs are forced to look for new ponds we might just looses them Lets keep the inclusive theory, lets build new membership, and not loose the current members. Now back to what we're doing
Dennis does have a point on records for O/S guys so, if you go with the idea outlined earlier in the thread, leaving the placement of the left turn and hairpin turn at specific distances and location you can stiill vary the course enough to keep it interesting.
If it is worded so ;"this course design is the only acceptable layout for a NAMBE O/S record,courses modified from that layout are still acceptabel although no records can be set." This gives the host club the option of handeling it the way they want. We as racers have the option to attend or not, if records are that important to us. And for DMWB and other clubs with tight areas to run you can still provide O/S just not a record course

[brooks93]

And who is it that speaks for the country? It sure saves us a lot of work it would take to get the rulebook on track.

slow down big guy.. You make it sound like its all been done.. all I am saying is the the standard oval might be bigger next time around because of technoligy and how fast the boats are going. I am sure its wouldn't be anything drastic.. No one is working on the sprint rules yet so its all rumors

[brooks93]

If it is worded so ;"this course design is the only acceptable layout for a NAMBE O/S record,courses modified from that layout are still acceptabel although no records can be set." This gives the host club the option of handeling it the way they want. We as racers have the option to attend or not, if records are that important to us. And for DMWB and other clubs with tight areas to run you can still provide O/S just not a record course

Thats how it is now.. hence Michigan and Ohio.. we don't run a namba offshore course so no records but, you still get the awards

[Pete B.]

Do we like how it reads? if so then we just need to modify the course design and guidlines for it.

[brooks93]

5. Race Courses: is a standard NAMBA oval with a hairpin buoy 80’ from turn 1,3,4 or 6 (sites discretion) with a left turn buoy will be placed 85’ from turn 3 and 4 or 1 and 6 (sites discretion) and will be placed inline with turn 1 and 3 or 4 and 6.
a. Record Courses

1. Must be course defined above

b. Records

1. Records are awarded to the person with the most laps in a single race over the lenght of the race. IE most laps in 4 minutes

this is how it reads now so lets add the wording to it

[Dick Crowe]

I kind of like the current course. If we had to setup a separate course for offshore our club would never do it, not for a couple classes. If all we did was run offshore, sure, but we are sharing the road so to speak.

It sure makes since on paper, Batteries have more capacity, boats are going faster, oval times are dropping.

BUT, there is one issue that will turn this all on it's head. Lipolys. My guess is whatever we do with the course will be obsolete with the advent of Lipolys. I'd rather see our technology change first and then adjust the course size instead of adjusting our course every couple years which is what will happen if we tried to do it now. Nobody knows what Lipoly technology will do to our sport. I think it's going to be the single biggest advancement we've ever seen. I have nothing against making our course bigger, but lets do it once, when the time is really right!

Just a thought.

Dick

[brooks93]

Dick we are talking about putting one extra buoy on the course for the offshore hairpin turn pin.. everything else is already there.



red marks the oval buoys.

Blue marks the ofshore buoys. which the left turn buoy is the start line for oval.

either of the blue buoys can be moved to one of the black dots for there respected position..

so 2 places for the left, and 4 places for the hairpin

just hope you drive a better line that what I have drawn.. LOL

http://www.brooks93.com/CAFE3/rough%20course.jpg

[Pete B.]

Not to get off track but I agree lipoly cells will be one of the single biggest advancment to the hobby, as Chris Fine figured out we still need the weight of the sub c's or some other form of weight. I think we will need to reengineer the way we build and set up our boats, too much power they will not stay on the water
Now back to the course!
I like the course we ran in MI. and the option to change the corner the hairpin turn could keep it interesting. Now how many clubs have the room for that course?
Dick the rules should provide for any other variations of an O/S course to include the current one, however for simplicity of record keeping lets choose one as the official course for those who like to break and hold records

[brooks93]

the one in michigan was like the one above but, the left turn was on the back not the front.

Yes the rules would say the one above the record course and any course other then the above are acceptable but, not for records..

I would like to make a change as far as cell requirements for offshore also to allow lipolys

[Dick Crowe]

Looks like a fun offshore course. It also looks like something somebody might whack in a sprint race. I've run too many races where that bouy would come into play, especially when a dead boat is called a buoy 10 feet off of the exit pin.

http://www.drcwebservices.com/images/ofcourse.jpg

[brooks93]

Dick the hairpin is 80 feet away from the oval turn to allow all lanes.. I know you can drive around a dead boat that is 10 feet of the buoys with the extra 70 feet

I haven't seen someone tag that buoy yet in all the club racing at our course that is setup like that.. I am not saying its not possible but, the chance of it happening are slim

[Dick Crowe]

As long as it's out of play, that's fine with me. I don't drive out there! I was just worried about the guy who does. Hey Dan, just out of curiosity, how far out was the boom you guys had at nats that people were getting hung up on?

Dick

[brooks93]

ok this is what I got for the last part.. lets word it and close the deal

5. Race Courses: is a standard NAMBA oval with a hairpin buoy 80’ from turn 1,3,4 or 6 (sites discretion) with a left turn buoy will be placed 85’ from turn 3 and 4 or 1 and 6 (sites discretion) and will be placed in line with turn 1 and 3 or 4 and 6.

a. Record Courses

1. Must be course defined above. If another course is used no records can be recorded.

b. Records

1. Records are awarded to the person with the most laps in a single heat over the length of the race. IE most laps in 4 minutes

c. Awards

1. Offshore High Points Award will be awarded to the individual racer with the most accumulated points over all 5 class's. If there is a tie then it will go to total laps over the 5 class's. If there is still a tie then there will be a run off between the tied racers with the winner receiving the award.

2. Offshore High Lap award will be awarded to the individual racer with the most accumulated laps over all 5 class's. If there is a tie then it will go to the racer with the most points out of all 5 class's. If there is still a tie there will be a run off between the two racers with the winner receiving the award.

.

[Dennis Whitt]

How abou that when you plan an event.You just schedule offshore along with some of the slower classes like cracker.N1 and so on.Then on the fast boat days you just pull the offshore marker !!MMMMMMM Good coffee !!

[T.S.Davis]

Been gone all weekend.

Your records description is a waste of time. How many guys are going to have a 13 lap world record before Cathie tells us to stop bothering her? Who is it that really needs/wants this?

You could time the first 10 laps but that has got to be a bugger for the CD. He watches the leader for 10 laps. The leader laps the pack on the 8th lap and cuts a bouy on the 9th lap. The second place guy doesn't even know he's second after 3 minutes of racing. I suppose that's always been a bugger though.

Pete, I like any idea that dishes out more plaques to the offshoreeans but we don't need a rule to tell us to do it. Or do we? Nobody told us to do a Mr. Offshore.

[Pete B.]

Come on Terry, constructive comments are usually followed by some form of solution or idea. Comments with out any are sniveling. I can apreciate your candor but telling somebody their work is a waste of time is down right rude. Please be part of the solution and not the problem.
Earlier the record idea was out then Dennis brought up the fact that for some people records are important. So there you have it. You should be flattered that your (MMEU) idea of a high laps champ was copied. If it is included in the rules you can expect to see it at venves that race O/S, It is a start to bring O/S racing on an equal level with sprint. To some the high points was important and to others the high laps were, so will it kill us to have both.
Kelly has worked very hard in trying to write a set of rules that are not only take the inturpetation of the rules out of the equasion, be fair to all who race O/S, and the way the wording is they become inclusive to more racers.

[T.S.Davis]

Kelly's all right for a guy from Ohio. Must be his Michigan roots. LOL

Kelly and I only talk about 26 times a week about boat crap. He chews my butt if I miss a call.

[brooks93]

Good job Pete.. see Terry you thought you could get away with it while I was in cleveland didn't you.. LOL I left my bulldog on the porch with a long chain..:D

I think records need to be included because to some of the elite that is what they get paid for by there sponsor to get there name up on the record board.. Plus I think it would be a hoot to see my name up there someday or at least give me a benchmark to beat.. Your just getting to easy to beat Terry.. LOL j/k

as far as the awards goes.. I figure if its in the rules then its a national thing and everyone will do it the same so if you go to a namba race anywhere you know whats on the line because its in black and white. Plus we have the same chances for the big stuff as the sprint guys and no one can say well offshore has never had it in the past.. or what page does it say offshore has high points. etc..

its it going to hurt to have them in the rules.. besides I just threw that out there for everyone to look at and give idea's on.. so since no one has commented about there wording. It sounds like the rules are wrapping up and it only took about 4 days to do it.

[T.S.Davis]

Originally posted by brooks93

as far as the awards goes.. I figure if its in the rules then its a national thing and everyone will do it the same so if you go to a namba race anywhere you know whats on the line because its in black and white.

OR

You can build the biggest, coolest, freekin race on the planet, run it the way you think it should be, and leave a wake of distruction in which all races will have to survive in the future.

We're still working on that. We get better every year.

There is no current "rule" governing the calculation of high points for sprint either. It's up to the venue.

Seriously, some genius is going to have to find a way to measure for records if there really is a demand for it. I don't think there is. Turning enough laps to win P offshore at MC5 let alone the NATS would be quite an honor. A NATS win in that class would be like notching your belt with a chain saw.

You mentioned the elite. IMO We don't need to make rules for the elite. We need rules for the masses.

I'm against the records idea because you would have to pin down the course. Even the variation of moving the point buoy to any of the 4 corners would affect the lap speeds. In order to be "fair" you could only have one course. I like the idea of allowing guys to run what ever course they prefer. Gives the home pond guys a slight advantage. Just like real racing. Just me?

I'm not reading a bunch of voices (LOL) clamouring for records so I have to wonder why the push. Rules need to revolve around the racing and not the records they produce. If the "elite" want records then let THEM chime in and explain how best to do it. The time 10 laps thing has got to be a bummer. Highest laps in 4 minutes isn't going to work.

[Steve Vasdekis]

I would agree with Terry on the 10 lap time, because a guy can set his boat up for 10 laps, get the record, die and play bouy for 2-3 laps waiting for the others to finish to secure the wood. Now as far as calculating the laps I say you count like this, 10/4 which means lap 10 stopped at bouy 4. At the end of the heat add up the laps and count the bouys and if they total 7 add a lap to the total.

[brooks93]

nobody is talking 10 laps. thats why it says most laps in 4 minutes not 10 laps.

You can build the biggest, coolest, freekin race on the planet, run it the way you think it should be, and leave a wake of distruction in which all races will have to survive in the future.

so why go through all the trouble if you are just going to do it your way .. wants to point of rules

There is no current "rule" governing the calculation of high points for sprint either. It's up to the venue.

so its open to interpertation.. or thats how it was done in the past

Also there is not any rule about high point then offshore can be included since its not in black in white.. How can anyone argue it.. oh wait it goes back to "thats how it has always been done"

as far as records go's.. who freaking cares if they are in there or not..

so if you want to change the course.. CHANGE IT the only thing it will effect are the records.. I mean what does it hurt or who does it exclude if its there..

So if you club doesn't care about them then don't submit them or run a different course.. but, if your club does care then its there for you to run.

heck you can run a 600 foot straight with a hairpin on each end and call that offshore course for all I care.. the rules let you do that

[brooks93]

I would agree with Terry on the 10 lap time, because a guy can set his boat up for 10 laps, get the record, die and play bouy for 2-3 laps waiting for the others to finish to secure the wood. Now as far as calculating the laps I say you count like this, 10/4 which means lap 10 stopped at bouy 4. At the end of the heat add up the laps and count the bouys and if they total 7 add a lap to the total.

as stated in the purposal.. most laps in 4 minutes not 10 laps

you lost me on the counting thing.. doesn't make any sense to me

[K.R.Joye]

Hey guys you've got some great stuff proposed on nailing down hulls and appearance. I agree with Terry to keep the courses interesting they should be different just like the`real boats' have. As for course records O/S straightaway (to me still makes no sense)is about the best your going to do. Club records for O/S could be broken if a club decides to use the same course year after year like they do at some venues, 10 lap times i'm against. What was decided regarding S & T? They ran the nitro course at MC5, really spread out the field gave em room to air out and was very successful. Is the std O/S course you guys are proposing for all 5 classes? If so there should be a stipulation option for S & T to run a larger safer course. I realize some ponds may not have the room thats why make it optional. Also lipos and other cells Full C or D should be addressed unless i missed it.

Ken

[brooks93]

0 lap time i against also. I agree with Terry to keep the courses interesting they should be different just like the`real boats' have.

I like the idea of allowing guys to run what ever course they prefer. Gives the home pond guys a slight advantage. Just like real racing. Just me?

read what you guys are saying..

let me make it bigger

NO ONE IS SAYING YOU HAVE TO RUN THE COURSE STATED.. IF THE HOST CLUBS WANTS TO CHANGE THE COURSE THEY CAN. YOU ONLY NEED TO RUN THAT COURSE IF YOU WANT RECORDS.. IF YOU DON'T CARE THEN DON'T COUNT THEM OR DON'T RUN THE COURSE.

So Terry and Ken you have what you want already

5. Race Courses: is a standard NAMBA oval with a hairpin buoy 80’ from turn 1,3,4 or 6 (sites discretion) with a left turn buoy will be placed 85’ from turn 3 and 4 or 1 and 6 (sites discretion) and will be placed in line with turn 1 and 3 or 4 and 6.

a. Record Course

1. Must be course defined above. If another course is used no records can be recorded.





if you don't like it then reword how you think it should read and we can talk about it.. That was my first crack at it and no one has made any changes or even proposed any

[K.R.Joye]

Once a std O/S records course is adopted i doubt wether will see much of anything else at the larger venus, the big names will insist they be able to set O/S course records. The wide open larger courses may go by by forever. (Just a prediction) I really think this is defeating the wide open rebel appeal of O/S were so much trying to capture.

Kelly the cell issue?

[T.S.Davis]

Sorry Kelly. Next time get a bigger hammer. Maybe you can pound it into my head that way.

Record hounds can run the record course. The rest of us can run the course we want to. Like we're doing now. I'm still not sure what you'll do when 7 of 21 P offshore entrees at 13 laps. 7 world records?

[jhainer]

Run off for 14 laps LOL Sorry Not cunstructive

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by Dick Crowe
Hey Dan, just out of curiosity, how far out was the boom you guys had at nats that people were getting hung up on?

Dick

Hey Dick, the log booms were 450' long and 225' out total og over 900'!!!. In the corners, it was 125' from the apex buoy, and if I remember right, the back straight was 100' wide.

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by brooks93
So if you club doesn't care about them then don't submit them or run a different course.. but, if your club does care then its there for you to run.


The problem is, it excludes the clubs that want to run for records but can't fit a bigger course then the current NAMBA oval.

We have had a few of offshore records set at our "Heats" races, I guess that would come to a screaching halt!

[Steve Vasdekis]

Here is how i think the counting of the laps should be instead of 1/4 1/2 etc... Say you have 10 laps and your stops at pin 4 your total will be 10/4, say your second heat is 11/2 and the third is 6/7 your total will be 28 laps and 5 pins. Hope this maks sense.

[brooks93]

Run off for 14 laps

john read all the pages... no one is talking laps anymore.. it will still be 4 minutes

[brooks93]

ah I see what your saying but, your drawing is for oval.. there are only 5 pins in a offshore course as it sit right now.

Dan I see your point but, how many clubs is that going to effect?

the only way to include you club is to leave the course how it is which is one thing everyone wants to change.

[Steve Vasdekis]

Your right, but at least you get my point. Add the laps up and the most laps sets the record.

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by brooks93
Dan I see your point but, how many clubs is that going to effect?

the only way to include you club is to leave the course how it is which is one thing everyone wants to change.

Tough love... eh?!? :(

BTW: Who is everyone???

[Dan Chase]

Kelly, I can understand why you want bigger course for the S&T Offshore classes that are NOT official NAMBA classes, but what does the longer course do for P Offshore? What does it do for N2 Offshore??? Both of which ARE official NAMBA classes. Jeeze, it's agonizing enough driving a N2 around the current offshore course!

It seems your trying to ramrod a new official course down our throats for 2 classes that aren't even raced anywhere but MI & Cleveland and are NOT recognized NAMBA classes!

We can run a variety of courses, but we can't extend beyond the apex buoy of either turn. We can run a dog leg, M course, a triangle and probably a dozen other courses, just not what you described.

[brooks93]

read the rules again Dan.. S and T are in the offshore rules I we are purposing..

for n2 its a bit big but, our n2's out here run 29 to 30 mph for everything else its just right except for T which its a tad to small.

our P, Q, and S boats on this side of the country are all 38 to 43 mph boats.. the course as described now it to small for those speeds when you put a left in it. I am not trying to stuff anything down anyones throat.. You are the only one that has expressed dislike for the course and only because your pond won't support it.

I am not trying to single you out but, you are the only one I seen that disagree'd with the size

give me a call 513-583-5837

[brooks93]

but what does the longer course do for P Offshore

makes for faster boats

What does it do for N2 Offshore

n2 runs about a lap to a lap and half slower then P

Tough love... eh?!?

BTW: Who is everyone???

99% of the people that HAVE ran the bigger offshore course for ALL class's

[brooks93]

Dan you must be typing alot you been in here awhile..:D

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by brooks93

I am not trying to single you out but, you are the only one I seen that disagree'd with the size


Not trying to be a PIA, but besides me, here are 2 other quotes from this thread from members of different clubs:

Originally posted by LOU
The course should be able to change. At humber bay we have limited space and we don't plan on moving. Different courses at different venues would be cool. The starting procedure, the lenght of race, the points calculation. This is the kind of stuff that should be consistent.


Originally posted by Dick Crowe
I kind of like the current course. If we had to setup a separate course for offshore our club would never do it, not for a couple classes. If all we did was run offshore, sure, but we are sharing the road so to speak.
Dick

There have been about 10 people that have responded to this thread, Pete B started out agreeing not to change the course for records. Of the 10 or so that have responded, I would hardley say it's just me!

[brooks93]

Dan,

Dick made the post before I explained the layout and furnished a pic.. after the pic and explaining its only one buoy he said this.

Besides I have seen Dicks site if they are still in the same spot and they have plenty of room to add one buoy without any problems.. If they chose to

Looks like a fun offshore course. It also looks like something somebody might whack in a sprint race. I've run too many races where that bouy would come into play, especially when a dead boat is called a buoy 10 feet off of the exit pin.

and as far as Lou's post goes.. The course can be changed.. from the defined course. Besides I think I heard lou's club runs under IMPBA I might be wrong

[brooks93]

Dan let me ask you this

If your pond would support the course would you feel the same way?

or PM me your number and I will call you

[T.S.Davis]

Some of us want to see offshore move into it's next phase. We have to kick the rules around a bit if that is going to happen. S,T, new course, better art requirements. Isn't that all we're talking about right now? Mybe some better scoring options as long as we're poking around.

S offshore works. T offshore works. We've proven it. Why add S and T offshore as official classes? Why invent LSH? NOBODY was running that when it got dreamed up. Build it! They will race it. S & T have only been run in Michigan and Ohio because that's the only place it's been offered. It's huge crazy infectious fun too. The first time you reef down on the throtle of one of these beasts your hooked. There IS NO CURE!

Why the more interesting course? Why not? If it moves the hobby forward then what is the harm? The big course isn't that big. It's actually less buoys to toss out too. You really only need 30' more in length to make it work. Ask the guys that ran it at Sharp Park how scary that hairpin was at MC3. We had very few incedents even with that tiny pond.

Consensous is NEVER EVER going to happen through typing on this board. All we can hope for is an open dialog that in the end produces something that the masses will approve of. Someone will be thrilled. Someone will be pissed. Someone will just complain (probably me LOL).

Just like always.

[Dan Chase]

I would like to propose a different variation of the offshore course.

Basically, it would be to eliminate 1 left corner from the current NAMBA offshore course and have 1 full straight. The left turn could be located on either the front straight or the back straight, it would be the host clubs decision.

This would allow the high cell count boats the same straight-away that the high cell count sprint boats use now to stretch there legs. Does an offshore boat really need more straight then an S Hydro? At the same time, the lower cell count offshore boats like N2 & P offshore will be on course that wont be to long.

If and or when the electric NAMBA oval size is increased, the offshore course would automatically be increased accordingly since they would be intertwined as they are now.

This course has some definite advantages as I see it.

1) Any current legal NAMBA course could still have a record legal offshore course.

2) The offshore course is still based off the electric oval, this gives consistency to the offshore course in the event the NAMBA oval is changed in the future.

3) It's a compromise between the higher and lower cell count offshore boats, it's maybe not as long a straight for the high cell count boats, but, it's not to long for the lower cell count boats.

4) Clubs could still elect to run a bigger course for offshore, but clubs wouldn't be excluded from running for records due to size limitations.

[brooks93]

everyone knows my feelings on this so I will not comment on it but, I would like to see what everyone else has to say.

[Greg Schweers]

You guys are going to talk about a rule change on minimum boat length in each class? That's the only big concern I have. Also, I'd like to see any type of battery. Offshore is a good place to start.

[brooks93]

some of us have talked cell change to allow lipoly but, we kinda think it should change across the board for sprint and offshore at the sametime.

it would be easy to do.. just have the class's to be by voltage and not cell count

min lenght hasn't been brought up becasue we don't want to exclude any boats that someone might have.. if its to small they will now it in a hurry

I would go for either so it doesn't really matter to me

[Greg Schweers]

I think the biggest problem with offshore has been no size limit in the classes. I don't think it's fair running a 22" boat in P-offshore. I know for a fact that you'll have a very difficult time beating a 22" boat in P and Q-offshore. For Q-offshore all you had to do is run 13 cells and the boat's legal. As for the battery change, this is the perfect time to try it. If you change it clear across the board (sprint and offshore), a guy could have a small fortune tied up in batteries. Personally, I think you're putting way too much into the graphic thing. I actually like my boats as plain as possible; I think of paint and stickers as extra weight. Unless there is boat length change, there's no reason to change the rules--leave the rules the way they are.

[LOU]

How about a record course built on the standard oval size so all current clubs can set records. If you want to go to a bigger course you can, you just can't set National Records. The records are actually second on my priority list. The 4 mins allows so much time for things to happen that with dead boats, chop ect Laps and placing will be what I shoot for. If someone sets an offshore record in a 3 boat heat on perfect water is it such a big deal.

Greg, The rules allow for one colour boats, even white. You just need to slap some low weight decals on.

MMM does race IMPBA rules. The rule book is posted and available in pdf format. We also use the NAMBA lap penalty for cut bouys to promote better driving. We are not an official IMPBA club because we don't need their insurance and it would just add extra costs to our Members. We have a unique venue but we do have space limitations. We do offset a bouy of #6 but can't meet the 80 foot requirement of the current proposed rules.
A smaller course also gives brushed power a chance and more focus is put on driver ability to navigate the cornors at speed not on who has the fastest boat down the back stretch.

Kelly I said it before, A poll would be helpful in seeing what the masses think.

[T.S.Davis]

Our course isn't just designed around S and T. It's just plain old more fun. I've not heard any complaints in three years that the course is too big for N2. I just noticed Kelly has the hair pin 80' out. We've only run 60' for the last 3 years. Does that help? Your only talking about one extra pin 60' straight out from the exit or entrance to a turn. An M course isn't going to hold my attention personally. The whole point of offshore is 4 minutes and the skill required by the course. An oval with a left?

Greg, great to see another name on here that knows their stuff. The more the merrier. Are the little buggers still showing up in offshore? I've noticed at our races that the little boats get killed by about the third lap. The layout we run makes for sick chop that's a little tough for a Force21 or Key on 12 cells to handle. That left in the middle can be weird. It's like ocean racing in there. Even Dennis doesn't run a Key on 12 on this course we're talking about. Now that I think about it, we had no Key wests on 12 cells at MC5. A big ole Titan 29 won P ofshore. The fastest P had to be a No Step but it was almost too small to handle. The Titan took it eventually. I could like some length restrictions too but every time it comes up nobody can agree.

What do you think the length restrictions should be? What if there were limits for just N2 and P? Maybe 21" and 25"?

I'd love to hear some more opinions on this idea.

[K.R.Joye]

No hull length restrictions, it gets to political and anal regulating them. It comes down to be competitive you need a boat to fit the course bottom line, even the big guys are realizing this.

Hey S & T O/S is here to stay. We realize its not for everybody, the larger boats have caught on big time in the U.K also. For the advancement of the hobby its a must.

I brought up cells options before no response, seams like we have a 2 forums going here, one on R/R and the other on the sidelines with phone calls. Bring it all out here on the table please!

I support having a `voltage range spec' per class to allow more than just Sub C. I think its important we Spec power types that are we will allow. So we would be permitting nicad, nimh, li-poly, lead acid (LOL)etc. I guess it what it comes down to it must be a sealed battery. Anyone want to share their thoughts?

[brooks93]

there will be no hull restrictions In this purposal. There is NO need for one.. if they are ran on the course we have setup they won't last.. Of course they can on the offshore course namba uses now.. they never air out. hence the reason for the bigger course

Sorry greg plain boats will not cut it anymore.. That was have the problem. all you need to do is slap Fuller on the side of your boats and a number and your offshore..

if your that worried about a 1/2 oz if that because of stickers then mill off a 1/32 on your hardware and you will be under the weight.

We can't make lipoly legal yet..

1. this would have to be done in the electric rules not the offshore..
2. NAMBA hasn't even approved them yet with there insurance

one on R/R and the other on the sidelines with phone calls. Bring it all out here on the table please!

Ken give me a dang break.. Ya Dan and I talked it out on the phone vs. make this 3 pages of bickering about the course.. get over it.


Get back on track.. we are talking the course and awards and thats it right now.. if you want to talk hull restrictions and lipoly start anther thread and we can add to this one if NEED be.

[Pete B.]

IN defense of the no hull restrictions, on the larger course no smaller boats had an advantage. If there are some guys that could set up a boat to have an advantage it is probably only Greg and Dick. And most of the guys that run the bigger boats are saying "bring the smaller ones on!" They know there is no advantage.
Having the hairpin turn adds an element of excitment and challenge to the course please do not give it up. You really need to drive the boat you can not just peg the throttle and go.

If we continue to improve and redefine the whole rule book we will address cell chemistry ( when we have more info on the insurance from NAMBA) and hull legnth restrictions if need be.

[T.S.Davis]

I really think the course changes the whole dynamics of the race. Maybe we try this new course and if the little boats are coming out on top we know we have to address lengths. I think the issue goes away but if it doesn't we make it right. There are also more people interested in offshore than ever before. If there is an obvious advantage to the little buggers it WILL get fixed.

With the chemistry, isn't the only limitation the 1.2v/cell? There is no "chemistry" restriction that I am aware of. Guys, something to toss around in your heads. We could put easily specify offshore power requirements in terms of voltage with a range for each class. P offshore would still be P range but described in voltage instead of cells. I know it's a whole new debate worthy of another thread but something to think about.

[K.R.Joye]

Originally posted by T.S.Davis
With the chemistry, isn't the only limitation the 1.2v/cell? There is no "chemistry" restriction that I am aware of. Guys, something to toss around in your heads. We could put easily specify offshore power requirements in terms of voltage with a range for each class. I know it's a whole new debate worthy of another thread but something to think about.

You got it TERRY nows the time to get power reqts updated!

Originally posted by Pete B.
If there are some guys that could set up a boat to have an advantage it is probably only Greg and Dick.

Give me a break, we got guys out East (here) that can run with the Old-Guard no problem. Maybe someday they can come out to Mi Cup and feel some real competition. If you went home with more than 3 plates at Mi Cup consider yourself very lucky. (Hm Hm, Hm, maybe this will get Dick out here next year, we need someone to humble Dougy,LOL )

[brooks93]

Ken for someone that says brushless is to expensive you are sure pushing lipoly.

here is another reason lipoly isn't that affordable right now. and a offshore running lipoly would CRUSH everyone that wasn't.. hmmm l got 8000 mah of power and can draw 100 amp continous..

nimh mmmmm I got about 3300mah and I can draw 40 to 45 amps continous...

so someone could dang near run a saw setup for the 4 minute mark

It does need to be addressed but, not right now. I am looking at them for a project and the 1800 dollars vs the 435 for nimh is a huge difference and a bit hard to chock

[K.R.Joye]

Originally posted by brooks93
Ken for someone that says brushless is to expensive you are sure pushing lipoly.

here is another reason lipoly isn't that affordable right now. and a offshore running lipoly would CRUSH everyone that wasn't.. hmmm l got 8000 mah of power and can draw 100 amp continous..

KELLY lipoly isn't the only option were shooting for, we'd really like to see Full C's and D's allowed. Sure, brushless is coming down in price and proving to be a viable option now that the BL esc's are improving. Keep in mind, FE is just a side hobby for me, playing with muscle cars is my forte'. Thats why i don't go all out $ like some of these guys.
In regards to Li-poly, sure you get major runtime but current motor technology won't hold up well over 40+ amps cont for 4+ minutes. So really the only advantage to Li Poly is weight loss.

[brooks93]

I could care less if you want to run C's and D's but, I think you would be suprised on what the current BL tech will hold up to with proper cooling.


For power related discussion move to the thread in the offshore forum's I think its called offshore power

[brooks93]

moved the the end of the post

[Pete B.]

NICE :D

[brooks93]

keep updating the post.. Dennis and I talking about penalties

where done