Lipo in Offshore

[Dennis Whitt]

Ok,I think we should allow Lipo for at least N2 0ffshore only and here is why.
Most of us believe and understand that Lipo is a train thats comming period.
I personaly would not buy a pack just to see !!
Allowing Lipo would spur experimentation and a place to run the cells if they worked.
The expense would be easier to outfit an N2 boat than a P boat.
Alot of guys are concerned about charging.It would help us build new habbits to use later down the road.
Preasant tech.Would still be aloud in that class.
From what I understand the performance advantages are marginal as well as weight.
I feel we should move forward with this a little at a time and allow more as each of us learn more.
I realize this is a little agressiv but we always fear what we dont know.How about it ?

[Patrick M]

I couldn't agree more, but the word is that Doug Sr. has stated that he will not allow any rule proposal which legalizes LiPo's to be presented to the NAMBA membership for a vote.....
Just rumor, of course...... wish that we could get him to clarify his position on the board.

[Pete B.]

This is a copy of a reply from Doug Sr. after I e-mailed him about lipos a few weeks ago. My question to him was if there was any insurance issues related to using lipos
I see no reason that battery's could not change in the future.Battery's have to fit our rules so we can keep a separation of the power factor for our classes.This is a tough subject! Anything in Namba can be changed with the proper procedures.This takes time and testing. Doug

[Patrick M]

.......change in the future......This takes time and testing....

Doesn't sound promising for the near future.

I'm sure that Doug Sr. is simply being cautious. However, IMO, with new technology becoming available at an ever increasing rate, a system needs to be established for the presentation, consideration and approval of new products...

[Eagle]

It sounds good to me. Its seems logical given that N2 would keep pack prices down for those racing and would minimise the risk of harm to racers or boats. 7.2 volts is a much better place to start with a new technology than 40+ volt boats. The only other thing I can see as sane is an experimental class then phase them in to NAMBA calles, I'm somewhat torn as which route to take at the moment.

[Andrewg]

Apogee have a 10C 4160mah LIPO - the Apogee cells seem to test consistently well at their rated discharge rates

Approximatley 3700 under load. More than 3300's

This will give 35-40 amps in a 6 cell boat and require only 2 cells to be used - with a weight saving of 2 cells at a cost of $85.

IE affordable LiPos suitable for use in Offshore are available.

If the rule that all the cells in the boat are counted; that is the rule virtually mandate a single series, then adding a lipos of 3.7v rating to any class which is a multiple of six or three cells is a minimal rule change and may now produce a feasible race boat.

It looks like barking up the 15 and 20c trees might be mistake - given the apogee specs and quality - a balance between larger capacity and lower disacharge rates to achieve good current levelks seem to be the most cost effective solution

BTW Steve Hill at Robotic Power Solutions drew my attention to these cells. Credit where credit is due.

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Andrewg
If the rule that all the cells in the boat are counted;

That won't be the case. Right now it almost is. The rules were fixed so that all the cells actually have to be providing power. In a previous version you could get away on a technicality and just tape a cell to the boat (dead weight) to go from N to O or P to Q.

Andy

[Drobie]

Anybody been swimming today?

[AndyKunz]

Doug,

Be careful where you walk in your flip flops.

If the advice of the advisor is "we need to talk to the insurance company about using these cells - they can be dangerous" then it might never make it to vote, as the insurance guys could stop it as an excessive risk.

You need to work WITH the PTB so that his advice is "This is good. The guys have done a lot of research on it and have come up with a few rule provisions which will take care of any liability issues in a reasonable manner consistent with our other classes."

I lobbied for 2 years about changing the chemistry requirements from 1.2V/c and all I got was "of any chemistry." That laid a foundation from which to work - we already have "of any chemistry" in the rulebook. All we need to do is change from a cell-count basis to a voltage basis and we're home free.

Politics ain't bad if you work within the system.

My suggestion is to have your club designate a club class (PSM?) as the guinea pig. For that class change your rules to be "10.8 to 14.4V nominal voltage" instead of "9-12 cells". This will permit 3S LiPo's to be used.

Keep track of number of incidents of any sort (damaged packs, flamed packs, ballooned packs, sunk packs, etc.) for any reason (overcharge, over-discharge, wrong charge, collision, etc.) and remedial efforts (fire extinguisher utilized, disposal by appropriate means, etc.)

Document everything and be prepared to explain it to DTSr. This data will be something that the insurance company will want to see if they have any questions, so keep a copy for yourself.

I suggest you work with paper forms rather than doing things completely electronically. The form should have all the info (contestant, hull type, power, ESC, cell brand/model, etc) as well as photographs. Form should also be signed/dated by both operator and CD.

Document it to death. Only then can you expect to be able to get your way if there's a question.

Andy

[Drobie]

Originally posted by AndyKunz
Doug,

Be careful where you walk in your flip flops.

Andy,

I personally have no interest in LiPos in boats right now, other than in my scale Chris Craft.

I thinks it's fine to be testing, even running a class at a race but a little early to be writing them into a rule.

[AndyKunz]

Enabling is not forcing.

Andy

[Drobie]

This can of worms is closed. TCWC

[AndyKunz]

Right - but my point is that it we can't force the insurance company to cover things if somebody tells them it's unsafe.

Suppose for instance that the President of NAMBA calls up the Gas class chairman and says that District 256 sent a proposal to allow liquid oxygen and nitrous systems for a national vote, do you mean to tell me that it should actually go to a national vote without the chairman saying "WHAT?!?!?!" when he hears it? In such a case the class chairman has a responsibility (to all NAMBA members) to advise that the proposal be tabled for safety reasons until research can be done into the matter. That research would entail the safety records and other documentation from District 256 showing how it is safe, and discussing the matter with the insurance company because it is WAAAAY outside the current coverage. In other words, it would never get voted on, District 256's upset members notwithstanding.

Right now LiPo's have an (undeserved, IMO) safety question about them. We need to play with them, document stuff, etc. in order to prove to the chairman why the rule change is necessary and does not cause safety problems.

For a lot of guys the only reason to join NAMBA is the insurance. If you insist on following the letter of the law and not the spirit, you could screw us all royally.

Andy

[Andrewg]

Andy

I agree opening the opportunites for things never hurts and that sounds like a hunky dory model for working with someone rather than against them (ironic isnt it when you consider the fuel the nitro boats use).

I think when people who are racing get a better idea of the long term economy of LiPo's they may have second thoughts.

[AndyKunz]

You're probably right there, but Cost Of Entry is usually what stops most people cold, not Long Term Costs.

Andy

[Drobie]

Originally posted by AndyKunz
For a lot of guys the only reason to join NAMBA is the insurance. If you insist on following the letter of the law and not the spirit, you could screw us all royally.
Andy

I'm not promoting LiPos and I'm not the one looking to propose a rule "enabling" them. IMO, their time will come and it is not now.

[Andrewg]

Andy I agree

what do you think of the idea of a pro division where the more experienced racers use lipo to start with ?

[AndyKunz]

We call it P Sport Hydro.

Your season is just beginning now, right? Can you run a P Sport for 10 laps and tell us what the time was that it took please? Maybe get Dave involved.

Andy

[Andrewg]

Yeah is it the start of the season?

Now June 22 was the winter solstice that was the last day of last year so we must be 4 weeks into it.

P Sport Hydro is one thing allowing someone experienced to run a 40 amp capable pack in LSH is feasible and would provide club members with a lot of info and enable them to see whether the packs are worth it.

Dave Warby? Goodness knows where he is these days. I know a few guys who would love to. As soon as this house is sold i may do it myself.