1/12 Scale Hull Options??

[Darin Jordan]

Since you guys seem to have a good bead on the 1/8th scale stuff, I was wondering if there may be a list out there of suppliers of 1/12th scale hulls as well... actually, semi-scale would work for me as well...

I'd like to build a Miss DeWALT in for O-Sport Scale Hydro and another for LSH.

I'm already looking at the Hydro and Marine Miss Budweiser Viper II Turbine hull...

Any other options out there???

Thanks,

[Jeff Shriver]

The H&M Bud Viper is good for O Sport (1/16th scale) and LSH, but it might be a little short for 1/12th scale (P Sport). It would be ballistic. The question is could you keep it on the water. People have raced hulls that are typically between 24" - 29". Some of the hulls (picklefork and shovelnose) include

H&M Lifter - 26"
H&M Bud Viper / GFK Viper II - 24"
Classic Hydros shovelnose - 24 1/2"
PIP Spirit of Batavia - 24"
Bandit shovelnose - 24 1/4"
RumRunner Atlas Van Lines - 26"
Bandit Larsony - 29"

to name a few.

[Jay Turner]

There has been some confusion about the name of this hull, and a less experienced boater may buy the wrong one. If you go to the H&M website you will not find a Bud Viper, but you will find a Viper, a Viper Turbinen Style and a Hydro Turbinen Style; the latter looks like one of the recent Budweiser Unlimited boats - see below. You will however find this hull on the Fine Design site, where it is called by two names, the Bud Viper Turbine Hydroplane and the Hydro and Marine Sport Hydro!

The boat called the Bud Viper in the above post is actually the Hydro Turbinen Style from H&M; it is 24.2" long so it is legal for P Sport Hydro. Unless I'm confused too!

http://tinypic.com/19wby8
Hydro Turbine Style

[AndyKunz]

I think the pictured boat (with the narrow canard) is ILLEGAL due to not meeting the 25% rule.

Andy

[Jay Turner]

No Andy, don't you subtract the width of the rear wing from the cutout to get the 25% rule measurement? It's the Lifter that's illegal without the canard...or is it the other way around. Darn, now I'm confused again! ;) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[AndyKunz]

http://www.montanadesign.com/transient/legal.jpg

The rear wing does not exist for measurement purposes. All measurements are at the deck.

In this picture, you can see the length going from transom to nose at the deck. That is labeled LENGTH.

A and B are the opened areas.

If (A + B) / LENGTH > 0.25, then the boat is illegal. Due to parallax, this boat looks really illegal, but the only way to tell is to actually measure it.

Everybody at the Florida Nats got to see exactly how this is done.

Andy

[Jay Turner]

Oh Andy, can't you take a joke? :lalala:





BTW, beautiful rendition. Some guys say that this hull is the most popular Sport Scale hull in the country. If this is so, have the major event tech inspectors been that lax? Or does the hull actually meet the current A+B rule? Some club inspector must know the answer.... :confused:

[Paul]

Hi Jay,

Unfortunately is does not meet the 25% rule by 1 inch. A small canard up front is needed to meet the rule. The reason it's never been called is common sense, of course that's really changed lately because of a couple people with lumber up their rears.

Paul.

[Darin Jordan]

So, if you added a small cannard up front, would it then be considered legal??

Didn't a version of the Budweiser actually have the second cannard up front at one point?? Forgive me, but I'm not really up on my Hydro history... I'm just looking for a good hull that I can run in O-Hydro...

[Capt Ron]

i too am a sport hydro guy and i got no problems with the rules or CD's enforce'n them to the letter...

see this pic...

http://community-2.webtv.net/waterdog49/SportHydroDesigns/

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Banzai240
So, if you added a small cannard up front, would it then be considered legal??

Yes, in fact at the Nationals DTJr had to widen the canard on his boat to make it legal before he ran it.

Didn't a version of the Budweiser actually have the second cannard up front at one point?? Forgive me, but I'm not really up on my Hydro history... I'm just looking for a good hull that I can run in O-Hydro...

Yes. It's a good size hull for 8 cells and a BL motor. You'll have a great time - just make sure you do a little measuring.

Unfortunately is does not meet the 25% rule by 1 inch. A small canard up front is needed to meet the rule. The reason it's never been called is common sense, of course that's really changed lately because of a couple people with lumber up their rears.

Or maybe it's because the CD lost his courage by being out-bullied by retailers? Or maybe it's because they don't want to be called for the cheats that they employ - don't ask, don't tell?

Or maybe they just plain old didn't know any better?

Andy

[Paul]

Or maybe it's because the CD lost his courage by being out-bullied by retailers? Or maybe it's because they don't want to be called for the cheats that they employ - don't ask, don't tell?

Or maybe it's just the fact that it's a good looking boat and nobody but a couple that don't race give a rats a.. about the stupid rule.

Cheats and bullies, man Andy, you need a navel lens to see your heads so buried.

Paul.

[AndyKunz]

Maybe they shouldn't be racing at a sanctioned race if they don't care about the rules.

Andy

[Capt Ron]

let's see...

Cup good - Nationals bad

Boat Pretty - Rule Bad

Paul Smart - CD Stupid

i'm a new guy and not up on NAMBA trends so can i send you my rule book so you can highlite the good rules and scratch-out the bad ones?

and a list of events for the same up-dating...
good events and bad according to hydro-guy!

Thanks

Capt Ron:p

[Jay Turner]

Maybe they shouldn't be racing at a sanctioned race if they don't care about the rules. Maybe NAMBA should pull the sanction for events that do not follow NAMBA guidelines. Afterall, the event CD signs his name on the sanction request certifying that he will: "hereby agree to abide by all NAMBA safety rules, and to conduct the meet in accordance with NAMBA racing rules."

While some may not like to hear this, published rules are there for a purpose, especially for large Regional or National events. How else can someone from a far-flung place know that his boat is legal or not if he cannot refer to published rules? Is it fair for the same guy to put his successful H&M Hydra Turbine hull aside and build a legal hull to race at the big event, only to show up and see that all his competition are running the same "illegal" boat he didn't bring?

The balance between being "fair" and following the rules used to be easy - we had smaller numbers of racers and no one cared that much. But as the organization grew there also grew a very strong need to follow published rules, this to avoid a multitude of problems. Witness what happened in November at the LA SAWs when the correct procedure was not followed. A huge amount of heartache would have been avoided if the CD had not been browbeaten into not declaring the subject hull illegal. Andy is correct, bullies can and do run things in NAMBA FE. It is time for NAMBA FE to begin to mature and not behave like a local club. The organization should be run by its rules - if we don't like the rules, then change them. :yeah:

[Paul]

Hey Guys,

Paul Smart - CD Stupid

LOL, I like you Capt.:D

Look guys, my boats meet the rules period. Please feel free to comb over them at will, I'm not worried. Now, would I or any other racer DQ the guy coming from BFE with a stock Viper that was a 1/8" too short or didn't have an add on canard? I'll let you guys answer that but I can only think of TWO people that would bitch and I ain't one of them.

Rules are a good thing to go by but some common sense and flexability should be part of those rules. I do this for fun, I really don't care for this petty BS.

Paul.

[Jay Turner]

Rules are a good thing to go by but some common sense and flexability should be part of those rules. I do this for fun, I really don't care for this petty BS. "Flexibility and good sense" were inflicted on the CD in LA and are exactly what caused the problems Paul - heck, you were there. Had the rules been followed at the time, then the weeks of recriminations and name calling after the event would not have happened. Just another reminder that rules have a purpose beyond making you feel personally controlled. ;)

While you may do this for fun and don't care, a lot of folks who spend a large amount of money on their boats may feel slightly different. To be fair to everyone, not just a few, the organization has the responsibility to follow the rules.

As for the hypothetical comment about the hull which is 1/8" too short - if past CDs had the guts to follow the rules and had declared such boats as illegal years ago, they would no longer be showing up at races today. But guys with these hulls know that they can count on officials who lack the ability to rule anything illegal, so they keep bringing their illegal hulls to race again and again. And then the next guy buys one because he knows that he'll be allowed to race it too. It's a never-ending cycle, stopped only when CDs have the guts to do the right thing for the organization, not just for the local club or one out-of-towner. :rolleyes:

We gotta stop acting like a small local club if we want to grow large like gas or nitro. Talk to a long-time nitro racer and see what happens when the rules are ignored at a large nitro race......

[Capt Ron]

in the brief time i've been involved in fe racing there are few things that folks seem to agree on... Paul P's boat building prowess and Dennis Whitt's driven competitive nature are two... i've witnessed Whitt in action, i look forward to eye balling your sport hydros in Michigan Mr P...

Capt Ron

[Dennis Whitt]

I tend to agree with Jay,There was a time when we were a little laxed on the rules because we were much smaller and were more interested in getting guys to the pond and finding a class they could race there boat in.
But now as we progress I think it is a good idea to start paying REAL attention to the rules that we have and shore up a couple that are a little loose.
We will be stritctly enforcing all current published rules at The Nats.So please check your boats and thumb threw the rules and make sure they are up to snuff.We dont want to turn any one away.
Andys,Conspiracy theory is way off.I think that what realy happened is that during the mid to late 90s availability of new hulls was at a standstill.DPI went out and came back,Mause went away,MRP fell off.Electric Thunder went away and came back then went away and came back and then went away again.Fuller was just getting going and Chris Fine was a little known hobby shop guy.Hell the only guy who seems to have always been there is Randy at BBY.
Suddenly,There was this influx of eoropean hulls with never before seen quality and availability.I know that when I got my first H and M Hydro,I said hey Cool !That should run on 8 and 12 cells and threw it together.I was so excited by all these new exotic toys I never stopped to measure them....Exactly.Obviously I wasnt the only one guilty of this.But I think we were all more willing to build and race those boats than disqualify them because they just didnt meat a couple of antiquated rules.How stupid would it have been to shelf that boat and say "sorry" its not legal.Lets face it guys there aint a but load of ready built,High performance boats out there.So you either shelf them or tweak the rules to allow them.What comes first the rule or the boat ?

[Darin Jordan]

Guys,

This is all fine and dandy, but keep in mind, there are MANY of us out here who don't have the resources/time/contacts to custom build the perfect scale hull... We are bound by what resources are available on the market.

I don't have my NAMBA rulebook yet, and I can assure you that I will shortly, but in the meantime, there still needs to be a place for people with boats that are generally available to the public to race...

... all of which is why I asked the question in the firstplace, because I AM a stickler for the rules and would like to build boats that are legal regardless of whether I'm just at a club race, or if I should decide to try bigger waters someday...

Keeping that in mind, asside from scratch/custom building something, what options does one have for 1/12 or 1/16th scale Hydro hulls that would be LEGAL?? When I first asked, the H&M Viper Turbine (Bud hull) was my first choice, and now I'm being told it isn't legal...

Is the ProBoat Bud? Lumar?? DPI T-Plus?? etc., etc...

I'll get my rulebook shortly and check into this myself, but in the meantime, what options do we have??

[AndyKunz]

First off, Dennis, no conspiracy theory. I have witnessed it first hand, and you and Becca were the ones who were browbeaten. Jay's comments on LA were supplemental, and show that this is not just something that happens in MI.

As for which comes first, obviously the answer is "The Rules." If you want to change the rules to fit a particular hull (bad idea), then get yourself a district and submit the changes.

Darin - your best bet is to build from plans. You can always make adjustments to make them legal. As for off-the-shelf boats for the 12-cell classes, there are several from www.bbyracing.com that are legal. The DPI T-Plus is legal, though you will probably want to rework it a bit. I don't have the ProBoat handy to measure, but if there's one at your LHS then measure it to see.

Andy

[Dennis Whitt]

Maybe second hand or here say.What good is a rule that allows the very existance of boats that work for that class?
Tweaking a rule to allow a popular model in a class would be far less difficult than contacting a manufacturer and telling him he must change his product.
Andy to think we should do the latter is rediculous.Ah,Thedream world you live in.Does it have a name?

[AndyKunz]

Dennis,

I was there, Dennis. Saw it firsthand, saw it tick off everybody in the pits.

Perhaps you also forget the walk back to the course too? Do you want me to remind you of what you said?

Andy

[Dennis Whitt]

Since, for some strange reason you are stuck on 24"being the end all for P sport why dont you call the folkes at H and M and tell them they need to ditch there existing molds and build new ones that area little longer and meat all of the other requirements or they can just forget about ever doing bussines with us racers again.That l fix em huh.

[AndyKunz]

If they wanted to compete here, the least they could have done is investigate what the market here demanded.

If they aren't interested enough to do that research, well then, it serves them right.

It isn't our job to change our rules so H&M's hull fits. It's their job, if they intend to sell to the competitors in that class, to make sure it fits the rules for that class. That's what I did - are they somehow better than me simply because they aren't American?

My guess is that the USA wasn't on their radar. In that case, it would fall to the importer to not bring the product in and try to push it for that class if it's not legal for it. Whoever is importing them needs to have more integrity, if he/she is pushing it for that class.

No problem with the hull. Go and run them. Just be sure that you don't bring it to a race and claim it's legal if it isn't. Same goes for Kyosho, Traxxas, Bandit or BBY.

Andy

[Paul]

Hey Guys,

"Flexibility and good sense" were inflicted on the CD in LA and are exactly what caused the problems Paul - heck, you were there.

Jay, I understand what your saying but I don't really think it's apples to apples.

While you may do this for fun and don't care, a lot of folks who spend a large amount of money on their boats may feel slightly different. To be fair to everyone, not just a few, the organization has the responsibility to follow the rules.

I never said I didn't "care" and I can say with some confidence that I have quite a hefty investment in this hobby. Not only that but I travelled to over a dozen races in the last 2 years, I think I figured close to 8000 miles traveled to races this year alone. I also have a HUGE investment in a scratch built 1/8th scale, would I bitch about a guy who hung his hardware off the back of the boat or wasn't 100% scale at a race, no way. This is a hobby and it IS for fun. I'm not going to be anal about the small stuff that has no bearing on the outcome of a race. Jay, you've never seen my heat race boats, belive me when I tell you they are right on the money and I send a large amount of time getting them that way.

As far as FE racing goes, we're still a pretty small group compared to our nitro/gas counterparts and I really don't see that changing any time soon.

Paul.

[RECORD 7]

Why is there a maximum lenghth in o-hydro? Why can't you run as big a boat you want? I have not seen many sport hydros with there namba # and a U-# on the hull. Will this be enforced at the nats?

[MR truckpull]

Namba #'s on the hull at this years Nat's.

This will be kind of hard to do since most of the people their will be paying their $10.00 Event Fee,and are not full Namba members.

LARRY

[JimClark]

Common sense would be to either help the guy who might have traveled long distances to run get his hull to comply with the rules or you simply let him run in the heats but not collect any points.
my 2 cents
Jim

Originally posted by Paul
Hey Guys,
Rules are a good thing to go by but some common sense and flexability should be part of those rules. I do this for fun, I really don't care for this petty BS.

Paul.

[Capt Ron]

at the '04 Nationals both NAMBA annual members displayed numbers and one event racer's were issued T #'s to display on thier boats...

see this...

http://community-2.webtv.net/waterdog49/nambasand10ooevent/

[MR truckpull]

Ron
I see a T1 on the first boat in your pictire, and a small U62 on the second boat.
NO other numbers after that.

The rules also say that you have to wear your number on your Back, 1 1/2" high.

What numbers do the one timers use??????
My Namba # is 615, How high have the numbers been given out to members??????????

To be safe maybe we should say that all non-members should use numbers over 1000 for a starting point. :(

Who is going to have all of these Decals for the non-members????
You Know that we can't have two boats out there with the same number.

I Vote that we do not enforce the number rule for all boats and drivers backs, for the 2005 Nat's

LARRY

[Eric]

OK guys alls you have to do is follow the lead of the high points champ and add tape to the front of the pickle fork section and have andy measure it like he did at the 04 nats.Or you can run a 26 and 1/2" hull and not place so it doesnt get measured at all in o-sport.

Now my opinion on this hull is if it is a SCALE model then whats the problem. Maybe we need to give the mfr's of the REAL thing a copy of our rules so that the sticklers wont DQ someone for having run a SCALE hydro instead of "sport scale". If its a miniature of a SCALE boat then it should run.
Whats a matter SKEERED?

[Eric]

LETS GO GUYS I want to really HEAR IT FROM YOU GUYS SINCE WE ARE ALL TRYING TO RUN AS CLOSE TO scale AS POSSIBLE,ARENT WE????????

[MR truckpull]

Originally posted by Jim Clark
Common sense would be to either help the guy who might have traveled long distances to run get his hull to comply with the rules or you simply let him run in the heats but not collect any points.
my 2 cents
Jim

This is the NAT'S not a club race.

If the boat is not running for pionts he should not be in the heat.
Say he gets in your way and you miss a record by 1/10 Sec.
Or he spins out in front of you in the thrid heat, and you had two wins already.

LARRY

[RECORD 7]

So in other words we're back to fear the rules! I saw on one manufactures web site a national champion lsh, this hull has been suspect as far as length, no namba#s, no U-#S and don't recall a sposner logo, yet I have seen people treated like they were the dumbast as...s just because there boat did not have a black canopy. I guess some rules are for some people and some rules are for others. This is kinda sad and is what stops new people from trying to compete fairly when they don't have a chance.

[eddieh]

Well this is all very interesting reading anyway, but correct me if I am wrong, if folks don't like the way a rule is written they can propose a change to the rule? and then it get's voted on by All the card bearing members no? so what is the problem? I also am in this as a hobby, and most important to have fun! and get a few chuckles, and to try to learn from the "Pros", Dick Crowe said it best when he said stay away from the grey areas, why not propose a rule change, or live with the rules either/or there Your Rules, I dunno, :doh: I mean which rules are you gonna be strict on which ones are ya gonna bend? it isn't an easy task for someguy to step up and be the cd, put his jones in the frying pan and watch all these fellas turn up the heat, when the call affects them!, and these fellas might be the first ones screaming should someone else be trying something in the grey area and pushing the envelope a little far... just my 2 cents....

[Capt Ron]

i wish all of you folks could have been at the '04 Nats...

when it comes time to get it on... off-season bench racing, rule arguements, and personality issues give way to RACING... trust the system

the T-Bowl had Andy Kunz as CD and a fair sampling of the finest fe racers in the country and a rookie or two thrown in for good measure...

records were set and folks had four days of enjoying just what they came for...

MC-6 da '05 Nats will be the same but 4X judging by the sign-up sheet...

its gonna be fine... put your energy into prep'n your boats and your skills

i assure you the seasoned racers will be ready...

Capt Ron

[T.S.Davis]

First,

The NUMBERS issue is not a "racing" rule. Failure to comply with this requirement can VOID! our insurance if there is an incident. I know we've never done it in the past but we've never had 450 plus entrants and 50 racers at an FE race either. We didn't do it at MC5 and WE WERE WRONG! CAN YOU HERE ME NOW? Your NAMBA number has to be on your back. It's YOUR responsibility as a racer to comply. It can be as simple as a piece of masking tape with the numbers written with a sharpy marker. The same is true for the numbers on your boat. A piece of masking tape and a sharpy. Rip it off when you take it home. No biggy. If the boats at the 2004 NATS did not have numbers and there had been an incident then the insurance company could have (not saying they would have) denied them coverage as the "Safety Rules" were ignored.

A radio impound is another rule we've always ignored. The lawyers could gobble that one up too.

Second,

This thread started with a guy asking about which hull to get. If he buys a boat from a supplier that knows nothing of NAMBA or any rules there for then he is taking a chance that his hull is illegal. If however, he buys from a supplier that tells him a particular hull is legal for a particular class then that supplier better be danged well sure that sucker is legal.

Here's why.

Let's say for a minute that I live in the upper portions of the enchanted mitten. Say I have no computer access but I have mad modeling skills and an interest in building a hydro (I actually know someone like this). So I poke around the local hobby shop and find out about NAMBA. I join. Get my rule book. Follow it to the letter and build my hydro. It seems fast. Maybe I should race it. I travel half way across the country to a race. I then have my butt handed to me by multiple renditions of an illegal hull. I know it's illegal because I had to study the rules to make sure the boat I built was legal. My response is of course WTF. I say to the CD, "That don't look right". What will his response be?

This is great for the hobby right? Last race I'm going to. If I was this guy and was pissed it would just be petty of me right?

and third,

As long as you can read you have no need to fear the rule book. It's got it's sticky points sure but eventually it will evolve into the document we want. That will require effort that some are willing to supply.

If rules are such an evil thing why have any at all? Let's just go with common sense. Run what ya brung. No classes. No guidelines. No nothing. We were gonna put up a course but no one could agree so we just tossed two sticks in and ran around them. How many laps do I have to run? Many as ya want! There's no rules!

Say! Maybe we could get the government to follow suite. I'm really tired of those pesky stop lights. Looks clear? Go for it! OH! and the speed limit! I hate that one too.

[Dennis Whitt]

You are so close minded.Please help me understand.Why 24".Why not 23" why not 25".If there arent many boats that fit in that range with out modification.Than change the bloody rule to fit what products are available.
Your problem isnt with the hulls,the measurements.Your problem is with the guy who was smart enough to see a good product and bring it in to the country.Nobody PUSHED anything.If that the case.You are also PUSHING your product.While you are pushing BRUSHED motors to the new guys to sell your brushed speedos.You are running brushless in your planes.
The 24" rule has no hard reason to exist except for CUZZ.Why 24"?....CUZZ thats why.
I stand by what I said earlier.We will follow all NAMBA rules.That means numbers on boats and numbers on drivers.If you are on a waver you will be assigned a number when you get there.
As far as the different calls for different drivers bull $hit.Leave it at home.No member of MMEU deserves to be called disshonest.We know who the pot stirrers were last year.And we wont stand for it this year.This will be a large important event to be enjoyed by everyone.Those caught not haveing fun will be ejected.

[brooks93]

I agree with Dennis, Terry and Paul.. oh and Jay

Andy, no offense man but, it does seem like you are one sided on this.. I understand the 24" and 25% rule but, it would be easier to change the rules then ask H&M to change the mold.. The only thing that will cause is the loose of a high quality boat..

[T.S.Davis]

Originally posted by Dennis Whitt
If there arent many boats that fit in that range with out modification.Than change the bloody rule to fit what products are available.


Change the rule. Great idea. Never happened. NOBODY stepped in to say "Let's adjust this spec. We need more choice" Although, I haven't been around that long. Maybe they did. Did a rule change get proposed before I was around on the length thing?

I'm sure if Randy comes out with a design that is 23-7/8" long with a 30% vent but really really performs we will show him the same curtousy we've shown H&M. or not He'd be changing the mold.

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Dennis Whitt
You are so close minded.Please help me understand.Why 24".Why not 23" why not 25".

Where did I say that the only rule we can have is for 24"?!?!?!? You got a problem here, Dennis. I'm not saying that THE RULE has to be 24". I'm saying that the rule say THE BOAT has to be 24" because that's what the rules say. Bring a boat that fits the rules, whatever the rules are, and run it and have fun!

I also feel it's a bad precedent to change the rules to make a hull legal just so it can be raced. BAD IDEA! Build yourself a better hull that fits the rules, or work to change the rules FOR THE BETTER OF THE CLASS. But there are certain things which define a Sport hull - one of them being the 25% rule.

Why do we have to be beholden to H&M? Why don't you run your boats that meet the 25% rule in O Sport instead, where they'll be legal?

As you well know, 24" is too small for P Sport boats to run well any more. It's like a 20" 8-cell boat. We are at a power level now that the 8-cell rules should be 24" minimum, and the P boats should be 27" (following Sport 21 rules). For LSH, 24" is still reasonable, but larger ones run well too, as proved in Florida.

If there arent many boats that fit in that range with out modification.Than change the bloody rule to fit what products are available.

As I said before, if that's what your CLUB (not you personally) wants, then do the legwork to propose it nationally. It's a big mistake to make shorter boats legal when they're already overpowered. Start running the (legal) hulls that they've been running for years in Sport 21 instead. The designs are far more mature and will give a big performance boost. Then you won't need to change the rules.

Your problem is with the guy who was smart enough to see a good product and bring it in to the country.Nobody PUSHED anything.

If anybody is selling a product for racing in a class with a set of rules, and knows that it doesn't meet the rules, THAT'S JUST PLAIN WRONG AND UNETHICAL OF HIM. But I guess we expect that from certain vendors, so it's OK, right?

You are also PUSHING your product.While you are pushing BRUSHED motors to the new guys to sell your brushed speedos.You are running brushless in your planes.

I also run brushed motors in them, from Speed 270's to Pletts to big Astros. (I just picked up another Astro-powered one last night from a friend). One of the reasons I worked on the new Victory controls was so that I'd have a production piece to fly in my Astro 60-powered plane (30-cell setup).

Brushed motors are still far more economical than brushless, especially for someone who is inexperienced or is not certain they want to stay with the hobby. They are also decent sources of power for a good, fun boat.

Here's a little math for you. According to the NAMBA records page:

The P Sport Hydro record is 55.59 seconds for 1/2 mile (5 laps).

The LSH record is 132.53 seconds for 1 mile (10 laps). If we cut that in half, that's 65.27 seconds. Less than 10 seconds (one lap time). I know of P Sport hulls that are close to being lapped by the end of the heat. Do you realize that means they are about LSH speed?

OK, let's take it to MPH.

55.59 secs per half mile = 32.4 MPH average
132.53 secs per mile = 27.2 MPH average

We're talking about 5 MPH here between record speeds for each.

YOU REALIZE THAT THE HOTTEST CHILI PEPPER, HACKER, OR LEHNER IS ONLY GOOD FOR 5 MPH OVER A SPEED 700!?!?!?

That's an pretty darn expensive 5 MPH you got sitting in your boat, Dennis.

THAT'S why I recommend brushed motors.

The 24" rule has no hard reason to exist except for CUZZ.Why 24"?....CUZZ thats why.

Well, since you asked for the history, here it is:

When we put the rules together at DTSr's house during a club meeting about 10 years ago, we wanted to make sure that the hulls available at the time were legal. Remember, we were in the 1/12 mindset at the time. We wanted the MRP Bud to be legal, as many guys already had them - it was just a touch over 24". We also wanted to exclude the Electric Thunder (1/16) hulls (Tracy hadn't made the 26" 3-wing Circus or the 30" Bud yet).

I am not opposed to rule changes - in fact, I often vote for them when they are good changes. Making P Sport shorter is going in the wrong direction. You don't need to be faster, you need to learn to drive better.

I stand by what I said earlier.We will follow all NAMBA rules.

I am sure you will have a good CD this year who will make that possible.

We know who the pot stirrers were last year.

I heard that at least one of them has been at it since MC-2. If they screw up again this year, are you going to let them even register for next year's race?

Andy

[Capt Ron]

i spent 15 years canoe and kayak racing to national level competition and if Ralph Sawyer, Gene Jensen, Perception, Mad River etc. told the A.C.A. or the U.S.C.A. change your rules to fit my new hull design, they would have said, "are you on drugs?"

i worked with Mohawk and Perception in designing competition boats and we built them to the rule, not the other way around!

Dennis say's MC-6 da Nats will be run by standing NAMBA rules and i trust his word!

like Paul P. i know my boats fit the current sport hydro rules and i suggest if your's doesn't, don't bring it!

Ron

a one race rookie

[Dennis Whitt]

Once again you have your ax in hand and feel the need to grind away.
I dont care what the rule says.You are right.24"is too short anyways but,What I am trying to get through your thick skull is availability !!!.Stop assuming that everyone has the time and ability to build a wood boat from plans.
Answer this for me.Name the available hulls in the 23 to 24" range.
Now,Name the hulls available in the 24 to 26" range.
Andy I am truely interested in P sport.look how hard I fought about the sport ruling a few months ago.
My comments are not about H and M.My comments are in regards to one of the most popular hys
dros to come around since the DPI American dream.
I also agree that those hulls would do well in O hydro.
Your dislike of Fine Design and your futile attempts to dishonor them is blinding your thought proccesses.
When these hulls hit the seen,Nobody was realy measuring hulls untill Drobie made it a big deal.

[Paul]

Hey Guys,

I guess I'm not being so clear on the H&M thing so I'll try again.

The hull has been around quite some time and has been run at tons of races. It's a 24" boat but every once in a while one comes up short due to shrinkage or ??? This goes for both Viper styles. Now granted the Viper Turbine doesn't meet the 25% rule but nobody ever really questioned it because the boat looks good/scale-ish. Ok, now to meet that 25% rule all one needs to do is use 1" of tape and bingo, your boat is now legal! One inch of tape or what ever (cardboard) between the sponsons and your good to go? Do you see how stupid that is? Are either of those 2 things going to change the way the boat runs? Are either of those things giving a performance advantage?

It's one hull guys, get over it.

If anybody is selling a product for racing in a class with a set of rules, and knows that it doesn't meet the rules, THAT'S JUST PLAIN WRONG AND UNETHICAL OF HIM. But I guess we expect that from certain vendors, so it's OK, right?

You know Andy, you really are so wrong making suggestions like that.

YOU REALIZE THAT THE HOTTEST CHILI PEPPER, HACKER, OR LEHNER IS ONLY GOOD FOR 5 MPH OVER A SPEED 700!?!?!?

THAT'S why I recommend brushed motors

Five MPH might as well be 50 on the water Andy. Dennis raced a LSH boat in P-Sport at the Canada race and while his boat was fast enough to win the class it was no where near fast enough to beat my P-Sport that CRUISED next to him for several laps. Had I wanted too I could blow by him at any moment during the race and took first rather than taking 2nd not more than a foot behind him. I don't care what your math says, on the water in a race it just doesn't compute.

I'll tell you what, you put a LSH boat against a brushless powered boat on the water for a 10 lap race and I gaurentee the brushless boat will clean the LSH's clock. I'll bet anyone, anytime, on that one.

Paul.

[MR truckpull]

Lengthening the H&M Viper style hulls is ease to do.
Take two hat pins, the type that you use to pin on a Boutonnière or Corsage.
Drill two small holes one in the tip of each sponson.
Insert the pins with a bit of CA.
Different size and colored pins can be found a your local florist.


LARRY

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Paul
You know Andy, you really are so wrong making suggestions like that.

I didn't name any names, and it applies to more than just the one name Dennis suggested, and to more than just boat racing. It applies to anybody anywhere who suggests that somebody run non-complying equipment of any sort.

Dennis - go visit a nitro race. You'll have lots to pick from.

Andy

[Dennis Whitt]

Back stroke Andy !!
In one sentence you say 24" isnt long enough for P but OK for LSH and in another sentence you say that there is only a 5 mile an hour diff.between the two....Hmmm.
What ?? So now you think running sport 21 boats in P is competative ??
Listen man it is very obvious to me that it has been a while since you have ran in this class...Or any other class foe that matter.Why dont you build some boats and do some REAL homework and then back with us on this.
In fact why dont you build a sport 21 for P and bring it with you to the nats.Oh thats right.Your not comming.
So let me get this strait.You dont run boats any more,Your not comming to the Nats.But your up hear once again PUSHING your bull$hitt beliefs on everybody else when it doesnt even really concern you or anything you are involved in.Tell yah what Andy.Build some boats.Show up at some races and throw in.Untill then your thoughts mean nothing to me.Because you my friend are way behind on this one.

[AndyKunz]

Dennis,

See if you can keep the expletives out of your postings or they'll start getting edited out for you. I encourage you to go back and remove them from your previous post.

I have run a Sport 21 hull at the Nats in P Sport. I got the start and, until I hooked coming out of Turn 4, had the lead. Got the video, too. DTJr ran a Sport 21 this year (and 1999). Weren't you paying attention? I have another Sport 21 I'm getting ready, too - another Patriot, a composite boat I designed. How many composite hydros of your own design are you running? BTW, mine will be powered by a brushed motor.

Didn't back stroke at all, dude. It's called "physics." A boat traveling 32.4 MPH has 141% of the energy as one traveling 27.2 MPH. (1/2mV^2), assuming they weigh the same. To control that energy properly, you need a stronger, larger boat. Think of it this way - you can't drop a 350 into an Escort and expect it not to twist things a little.

You're allegations on running boats are wrong, friend. Ask Donnie what I got in time for Christmas. It came in a long box and had some Chili's with it.

Yes, it's true I won't be at the Nats this year. I am changing jobs (168.5 hours to go!) next month, perhaps relocating, and my wife's family reunion is the same month as the Nationals. I do not think it would be prudent take off 2.5 weeks in such a short period of time.

However, if you can remember back to Florida, the race date you originally announced (without your club's nor site concurrence, I gather), I was quite excited at the possibility. Even my wife thought that was a perfect date. Oh well.

Rather than playing with toy boats, I chose to take a vacation with my family this year - something I haven't been able to do for several. Assuming, of course, that I'll be able to take the time off in the first place.

Now please explain to all of us why this is a bad thing.

Andy

[RECORD 7]

So Why is there a maximum length for o-sport hydro and none others???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????

[AndyKunz]

Because at the time we set up the class 10+ years ago, we were thinking more scale than Sport - and the 3-wing Circus (largest U boat) would have been just under the limit, making it legal. The Slo-Mo (one of the shorter ones) gave us the 20" limit.

It was another year before we came up with 1/12th (now known as P Sport), and by that time we knew that we wanted the MRP Bud included at the lower end, while we wanted to make sure we could graduate to nitro hulls (Sport 21), so we didn't set an upper limit (they had started edging toward 30" as a practical minimum).

I believe I answered that once before in this thread, last time it was asked.

Andy

[MR truckpull]

I have a question.
Has the Bud Viper hull without the extra 1" of canard, ever held a NAMBA record???????


LARRY

[PropNut]

What all of the large number of H&M owners and viewers of this board want to know, in plain terms, is what is the easiest way to make this hull legal?

Ray

[Dennis Whitt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AndyKunz
[B]Because at the time we set up the class 10+ years ago, we were thinking more scale than Sport - and the 3-wing Circus (largest U boat) would have been just under the limit, making it legal. The Slo-Mo (one of the shorter ones) gave us the 20" limit.

It was another year before we came up with 1/12th (now known as P Sport), and by that time we knew that we wanted the MRP Bud included at the lower end,

Changeing rules to allow a particular hull is always a bad idea ?Didnt you say that.
"Because at the time we set up the class 10+years ago"
Neither of the boats you mention even exist anymore.

I have been to alot of races in the last 3 years.Most refreshingly I have seen some new faces at these meats and guess what boats they were running? H and M sport hydros.In both LSH and O sport and P sport.Sorry Andy this is more important to me than an 1/8th of an inch on some 10 year old rule.
You have been spouting off for years on this board about how you are comming back to racing as you spew forth your generous gobs of imfo.
But time and again all talk and no action.Your only source of what is going on at races is all second hand.I can understand why you feel the way you do.The Rum Runner board is not the cutting edge on racing imfo.
Andy,You need to get out there get your hands wet. Go to some races.Race your boats and then lets talk.
I dont care if you have 20 carbon fiber hand made self designed boats sitting on your shelf.My 60.00 plastic Key west has been to more races and owns more records.Those boats are just as useless as the crap your slinging on here.Want to impress me ?Throw in the water and do something.Enough said ?

[Tappy]

I think the simplest way is to add the forward canard mentioned between the front sponsons (see attach). Most of the modern full scale hulls have them. The total length of all the "cut out" sections at the front of the hull should be under 6" (for a 24" hull).

If running in LSH or P Sport make sure overall "hull" length (excluding rear wing and hardware) is at least 24".

Now for my own question - Will the H&M hull work OK for sport running with 12 cell BL, or is it too small?

Cheers,
Scott.

[Darin Jordan]

Hey guys... I'm sorry I asked... :shrug:

[eddieh]

Originally posted by Banzai240
Hey guys... I'm sorry I asked... :shrug:



LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ohhhmannn that's perfect .... Banzai man sorry for laughin, but that was exactly what I was thinking....

[Tappy]

Oh come on, there's at least 3 posts in 3 pages that relate to your questions! LOL!!!

So do you want a DeWalt for O Sport and LSH, but not P Sport? Modern turbine hulls aren't as common as I'd like, but the H&M is a good option (with the simple mods to make it legal). Another would be the SS Hydro from BBY. It's modelled like a turbine from the 90's ie. it has one wing at the front, not two. Knowing Randy's production boats, it would be legal. Just send him an email for the specs.

It would be great if Gary Finlay would design a 26" turbine hull....hint hint.

[PropNut]

Thank you Tappy,

Now back to your regulary scheduled pissing contest between Andy and Dennis...

And you guys want to recruit new folks?????????


Ray

[Darin Jordan]

Tappy,

That's not too bad... and I'm in the market for an LSH boat too, so that one would be a nice option...

Thanks,

[Capt Ron]

i've chosen the Finlay designed 1980 Atlas as my weapon of choice... i have the resources to scratch build... 24.5, 26.5, and 29.5 versions...

the 26.5 Atlas kit has been out for 6 months and placed at the '04 Nats... all of a sudden we need more modern designs?

those who feel the need for a more modern design go for it...

being an older than dirt guy and rookie fe boat modeler what do i know?... but old and proven is good by me...

meet me at the Cup and we'll sort it out!

Capt Ron

and Dennis... i especially look forward to racing you!

[Tappy]

The Rumrunner kit looks great, but people want to model their favourite full scale boat and race it - which could be a more modern boat. Of course the reverse is true also, there's a lot of shovels out there (mine included!).

Another option wih the H&M boat could be to fit some clear plastic sheeting between the wing and the front of the centre section. That will retain the looks and should make it legal. Surely it's better than 1" tape?

[Darin Jordan]

Originally posted by Capt Ron
...the 26.5 Atlas kit has been out for 6 months and placed at the '04 Nats... all of a sudden we need more modern designs?



Capt... I can't speak for everyone else, but I know that when I say "more modern design", I'm referring to the STYLING of the boat and the "recentness" of the boat after-which it is modeled...

The 1980 Atlas was great... but how about a look from something in the 1990's or so??? In 1980 I was 12... ;)

That's all... You can only have so many round noses or Atlas' in one club...

[Jeff Wohlt]

This has been a fun thread....I have been out of it for a bit and not here but good points on the "rules" vs "that's the way we always did it and it was fine then"

Certainly a new time in FE racing...maybe it is time to get some input in to the directors and get some things changed that may more make sense with the equpi. now offered.

As far as Andy and Dennis...nothing new there....but I know one thing....two of the nicest guys to BS with about this sport and either one will help anyone in this sport at anytime. Two guys that have different views yet both have their hearts in this sport.

Where would we be without all these new hulls? It has done nothing but made the sport better looking, sexier to sell the hobby and faster than heck with records falling every year.

It is getting very important with all the records, egos and bragging rights...not to mention the sales from winning races with off the shelf hardware, cells and all that--- that standards and rules are maintained....otherwise records mean nothing.

Good to see Andy and Dennis are alive and well! Will there be a race where you will both be there????.... I would like to offer my services to handle the ticket sales when Andy measures Dennis' boats. ;)

[Capt Ron]

i hear ya Darin about a more modern look...

i was in southeast asia in a structured youth program (USMC) the year you were born so that explains our different tastes in hydro designs...

sport scale hydro's seem to be the current rage and that has got to be good for the sport...

LSH was the biggest class at the '04 Nationals and 10 laps is twice the fun!

Ron

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Dennis Whitt
Changeing rules to allow a particular hull is always a bad idea ?Didnt you say that.
"Because at the time we set up the class 10+years ago"
Neither of the boats you mention even exist anymore.

Oh, I guess I'll have to remove them from my shelf then. Sorry - I didn't know those boats aren't fun any more.

Yes I did say that, and I still think it's a bad idea to design rules around hulls. Just because that's what we did way back when there weren't many to choose from, back when H&M was still buying Electric Thunder hulls and reselling them in Europe, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

I am not saying "Don't change the rules" I am only saying "Don't change the rules to fit a particular boat" and "Don't make the class any shorter than it is - it's already too small."

Your only source of what is going on at races is all second hand.I can understand why you feel the way you do.

Tell that to the guy who just CD'd the Nats in Florida, please. Or they guy who CD'd the last Sardine race.

There's more to racing than being on the water. I get a kick out of running my boats (water's a bit hard right now). CD'ing is a great thing too - you learn a LOT because you HAVE TO interface with every single racer, not just a couple guys under a tent making a filthy mess of cigarette butts that you just leave for somebody else to pick up.

You really ought to try CD'ing sometime - dedicating your weekend to everybody else having fun rather than trying to run over them and say "It's not my fault" ( http://www.rc-hydros.com/Archived/videos/DennisCrash.mpg ). By the way, what hull were you running in that video? How much did you pay for it?

Want to impress me ?

Nope. I have no need to prove my abilities to you. I was setting NAMBA records before you even knew what NAMBA was.

Andy

[Dennis Whitt]

That was a fun race.I believe it was the 99 Nats in NJ.
I can promise you that I didnt TRY to run over any one.I value my equipment as well as respect others property as well.That video does however prove the importance of a good pit guy spotting for you.
The boat I passed was the last DPI Tplus I have seen in national competition.I believe That was Brian Vegas pink stink.
Let me reiterate my position because we seem to have gotten off base.
The p hydro rules state 24' minimum.I think there should be a + or minus 1% to help INCLUDE certain boats that are still good candidates for this class and a prospective boater can get into rather eazily as they are readily available already finished and just needs a minimum of time to rig as the hardest part ( a true and finished hull) is already done.
The propper motors props and hardware are also ez choices and ez to get.Because so many folks have already built these hulls there is a plethera of tips out there to asure ez success.
The person starting this thread asked for a good P sport boat.You suggested a T plus.I dissagree and here is why.Allthough a very striking boat it is a tank at almost 2 pounds bare hull.The anlges are wrong making set up tricky at best and the suplied hardware and drive train is wortless and further complicates set up.The boat would be rather lathargic with a 700 and would surely need atleast a good plett,ultra or Astro.Besides where would you find a new one.
On the other hand.This new boater could purchase a H and M Turbine and end up with good starter as well as a good racer.A 700 would as we know give him plenty of run time and speed as well as good looks for vertualy the same money.Also as this racer progresses he can run this boat in 4 different class.LSH,P hydro,O hydro and at Michigan cup N2 16th scale.Just a simple motor and prop swap.Sure the boat is a little hairy at top speed and could use a couple of extra inches but talk about value !
I would much rather run a light footed hydro with alittle throttle left in the trigger if I needed it as opposed to running a 2 lb sport 21 nitro boat that will hardly get out of its own way.Talk about a amp hog.
You cant beat dollars and cents and value with physics.in closing I would also rather see a new commer with a brushless motor (except for LSH) as I have come to believe that they are more robust and more forgiving.Take a plet or ultra and prop it wrong and you could end up with a bad arm and screwed up brushess the first time out.A brushless motor should thermal before any damage has accured.
I really loved my ul 125 in the video.I had hoped to find a fiberglass one back then but you sold the molds.Too bad.You really had a winner there.
Just because we dissagree on stuff doesnt mean I wont give KUDOS on your products.UL125,U100 and your speedos are all top shelf.But you have problems giving guys credit that some times sombody just may know a little better than you.

[Darin Jordan]

Guys... Is there literature somewhere that get's into specifics about exactly WHAT to look for in a hydro hull, or at least describes the different technologies??? For example... how would I know if "the angles are all wrong?"...

[Dennis Whitt]

Most guys base there purchases on prformance imfo from race stats and On here and other sights.
My suggsetions on my previous posts are sound and based on personal knowladge of boats I have raced in national as well as regional competition.I did however race a Bandit Larsony at the 04 NAMBA nationals.It was pretty rough and the boat did take a National record in both P and Q.But I am not so sure how well it would fair in light waters.Also this was a specialy prepared light weight carbon fiber hull.At 229.00 I wouldnt consider it a a value for sport racing but definatly top shelf in competition boats.Its your call.

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Dennis Whitt
That was a fun race.I believe it was the 99 Nats in NJ.

Yup. It wasn't much fun Sat night for me but Fri and Sat during the day were great!

The p hydro rules state 24' minimum.I think there should be a + or minus 1% to help INCLUDE certain boats that are still good candidates for this class and a prospective boater ...

If you do that, then somebody will find another boat, just another 1/8" shorter, and sell the heck out of them, and then people will complain that the rule is too restrictive because it keeps their New Favorite out of the competition. Where will it end??!?!

So instead of it being 24" minimum, it will work down to 23.5", and pretty soon it won't mean anything anyway.

The tolerance issue was already taken into consideration. We wanted the MRP Bud to be legal. I just pulled mine off the shelf - it measures 24 3/8". So I guess you could say that we made the rules 24 3/8" with a 3/8" tolerance :D

We made sure you could modify a Bud (trimming 3/8" for some reason) and still have a legal boat. Rather than confuse people on what "+/- 10%" means, we went with an absolute value. BTW, if you think about it, the "+" side of a minimum tolerance is meaningless - only the "-" makes a difference. And since the tolerance is fixed, you are really giving a different minimum than what you really want. Why confuse things?

BTW, 10% of 24" is 2.4" - which would make Electric THunder boats legal for P Sport! I think you mean 1% - that would be about 1/4". Why not just say 23 3/4" then, instead of 24? Next year somebody will find a 23 5/8" boat and you'll need to go thru this grief again.

If you really think it's a good idea to change the rule, start typing. It will only happen if you sit down at a PC and write it up, then get yourself a district and submit it. Don't complain about how the rules are unlesss you actually do something to make an improvement.

As long as we're handing kudos out, I like the Warehouse 32" boats you designed that Chris is selling. Good job. And the Force 21 isn't bad either - we have 2 of them. I respect your ability as a designer and operator of monos.

Andy

[Randy Naylor]

Originally posted by Capt Ron
at the '04 Nationals both NAMBA annual members displayed numbers and one event racer's were issued T #'s to display on thier boats...

see this...

http://community-2.webtv.net/waterdog49/nambasand10ooevent/

I have not had time or the intrest to read this thread for a while so I thought I would catch up. While reading and looking at the pictures I just saw a full shot of the Thriftway Too that boat is beauitful! Nice job Ron!

[Capt Ron]

the yellow 1980 1/13 scale Atlas Van Lines is mine...

the Thriftway Too, i believe was built by Garry Finlay for Don Wollard and detail painted by another human... Don could tell you...

it is a purdy boat!

Ron

http://community-2.webtv.net/waterdog49/HarveyGreenVintage

[Randy Naylor]

Originally posted by Capt Ron
the yellow 1980 1/13 scale Atlas Van Lines is mine...

the Thriftway Too, i believe was built by Garry Finlay for Don Wollard and detail painted by another human... Don could tell you...

it is a purdy boat!

Ron

http://community-2.webtv.net/waterdog49/HarveyGreenVintage

Well that is the way it goes, I some day will get it right with you.

:rolleyes:

[Capt Ron]

Randy no biggie I was just trying to give credit where credit was due...

[AndyKunz]

Eddieh did the detailing.

It was second place for Concours at the Nats. Reed Eagle's roundnose placed first.

Andy

[kensmith]

If anyone out there has completed mods in order to make the H&M turbine (bud viper) legal for PSportHydro, could you post some pics.

- length mods (to add the elusive 1/8")

- front wing mods (to conform to 25% rule). Also if it is legal to cover the gap, I am wondering if anyone has tried that and what impact on performance it would have.

I plan to legalize mine before we get soft water here in Chicago and would love to learn from some who have beaten the path.
thanks,
Ken

[MR truckpull]

Ken

Lengthening the H&M Viper style hulls is ease to do.
Take two hat pins, the type that you use to pin on a Boutonnière or Corsage.
Drill two small holes one in the tip of each sponson.
Insert the pins with a bit of CA.
Different size and colored pins can be found a your local florist.

As for the front wing - I have not tried it yet, Water is to hard.

LARRY