Gentlemen's agreement for SAW's

[JfromJAGs]

Some of us SAW racers agreed an having special LiPo limit's for SAW racing in 2007. It's a gentlemen's agreement, as the rules are not clear yet or not limiting anything concerning the total number of cells.

We don't recommend to run SAWs under different rules than below. For several reasons, please read here (http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/feforums/showthread.php?t=19984) for details.

Our NiMH/LiPo SAW rules for 2007:

1. Race with Ni-chemistry under 2006 rules (M-T)

2. Race with Li-chemistry like follows (based in 2006 rules):

a) 1 Li-cell replaces 3 Ni-cells

b) max limit for one Li-cell is 130g/cell and 5500mAh (as rated by the manufacturer). That's 150g/cell in a pack incl. cables and plugs.

c) Don't use more than 6 Li-cells (equivalent to Q)

Please note: similar to Ni-cell rules, there is no special rule about paralling needed. We just limit the total count of LiPo cells to be used in a class. Actually it's 1 for M (150g), 2 for N2 (300g), 4 for P (600g) and 6 for Q (900g). That's it.

From the above thread (and personal talk), I list the people here who agreed on this. If I forgot someone, please excuse me and add your name. If you think different now, send me a PM and I will remove you from the list:

Joerg Mrkwitschka
Arne Hold
Gunnar Hold
Tim "Old Man Winter" Higdon
Ron Green
Jay Turner
Dan Chase
Jan Hermann
Tony Heller
Jim Vaughn
Stephen Mason
Reed "Old Buzzard" Eagle
Chris Gierszewski
Lee Ferguson
Don Wollard
Donnie Wollard
David Hajj
Andrew Gilchrist
Mark Ferreira
Allan Shillitto
John Fruge

Please add just your full names if you think similar. But please don't argue here - as I will delete it as soon as I see it.

People removed from the original list on their request:
Brian Buass
Darin Jordan
Doug Smock
Ray Fuller
Bill "Hollywood" Oxidean
Randy Naylor

[Edited by JfromJAGSs 01-26-2007]: Red sentence changed to recommendation.
[Edited by JfromJAGSs 03-22-2007]: Some posts removed
[Edited by JfromJAGSs 09-12-2007]: to keep track who wanted to be removed, I added a separate list

Joerg Mrkwitschka

[Ub Hauled]

I concur with this Gentlemen's Agreement...

Jan Hermann

[BILL OXIDEAN]

I didn't read the fine print,
I agree to it..

[Dan Chase]

I agree with that, is this just NAMBA or is for IMPBA as well?

It is a general agreement, indepent of any organization. The reasons apply everywhere.

[D.Smock]

You can add my name to the list.
I can't afford anymore than that anyway.LOL

Doug (The Gentleman) Smock

[properchopper]

Yup, my hat's in the ring, too.
[ I'm not really a cowboy, I just stole the hat !]

[jevmax]

Joerg,

Add my name to the list.

Jim Vaughn

[Randy Naylor]

I will add my name to the list
Thanks this will help the cross over.

[Stephen Mason]

Joerg,
I agree.
Please add my name to the list also.

[fullers fast el]

I am in . Ray Fuller

[Reed Eagle]

Joerg,

Add the "Old Buzzard" :yeah: to the list also. Wow !! Can't believe I said that !!!.

Ol' Reed

[chrisgski]

IN

chris Gierszewski

[Darin Jordan]

EDIT:
YES...

See you in LA...

[lferguson79]

dido.......

[AndyKunz]

Joerg deleted 3 messages from this thread several days ago.

You can re-post on the related "Comments" thread.

Andy

[fullers fast el]

I think this has gone far enough , thats why people deleat, they are getting to much email over a thing that was over 50 post ago. Ray

[David Hajj]

I Agree..................

[Don Wollard]

Joerg -

Please add; Don Wollard & Donnie Wollard.

Great job, by the way. Thanks.

[Andrewg]

I agree too.

[Mark F]

Add my name to the list too.
Mark Ferreira

[Allan]

Joerg,

does Naviga underwrite this?

whether or not I would agree.

Allan

[JfromJAGs]

Moved to new "Naviga and LiPo" thread.

[jfruge]

Please add my name to this list.

[fullers fast el]

Take my name off , untell every one runs the same . Ray Fuller

[Capt Ron]

Take my name off , untell every one runs the same . Ray Fuller

Ray,

i understand your position and admire your candor...

i would only hope that anyone signed on to the 'GA who is attending the LA SAWS and now wishes to recant that position will stand and do so...

like Steven V. said on another thread about another subject...

i don't give c___ eighter way!

just be up-front about it...

i might agree about [2p] being needed for running 8 laps on a 1/6th mile course in oval racing against our nitro brothers for mAh cap. sake...

but can anyone explain to me why [2p] 9800-10,000 mAh set-ups are needed for 20 secs. of yahoo SAW'n in record time trials?


Respectfully,

Capt'n Fish-Sticks

[Don Wollard]

just be up-front about it...

but can anyone explain to me why [2p] 9800-10,000 mAh set-ups are needed for 20 secs. of yahoo SAW'n in record time trials?


Respectfully,

Capt'n Fish-Sticks

Capt Ron ... I will second your motion.

[Jay Turner]

It isn't at all a matter of capacity/runtime, but of output. A 5000mAh pack will safely give up about 250 amps burst for a few seconds (it might give up more amps safely without damage, but this is what the pack builders say). I have data logged peaks of 350 amps with a SAW setup and NiMH cells, so it is possible to over-discharge a 5000 mAh pack in burst mode. A 10,000 mAh pack would give up 500 amps safely, and with less resistance at lower discharge rates too.

Still, at this time I do not believe we need more than 5000 mAh packs for SAW racing. We do not have hulls or ESCs that are ready for much more than 50C burst 5000 mAh packs. For oval....perhaps we need more capacity, but more for cell safety than for performance or run time. Remember that a 30C pack of any capacity is fully discharged (which is too far!) in 2 minutes. :eek:



.

[BILL OXIDEAN]

I run 2s2p 10,000 sprint, oval, enduro, you name it, beceause I haven't found anything else heavy enough to keep my boat on the water...

I'm afraid I'm not alone either..

I'm not getting any miraculous ammount of runtime out of 5,000, or 6,000mah packs either.. they last barely longer than a 4200

Randy's hydro shot sky high with a 5,000 thunder power, and sunk to a watery grave..

I have to go up like 2-3 winds in motor to run those pax..:eek:

[JfromJAGs]

Honestly, you guys kill me. If you guys can't stick to your word even for one single year, WHY did you sign the agreement in the first place? True gentlemen you are.

I don't want to hear any excuses, because there are NONE. The right 5000mAh LiPo cells, preheated correctly, can put out way more amps for 5s than the best NiMH's we ever had. Everything else is a big f$%&n BULL**** - or you don't know what you are doing.

All you do is, you install even more power, so YOU will most likely be able to beat the existing records. From what I read here, I just see your eyes shining in expectation of THAT much power. I can see you pee your pants. All the good intentions are gone, your brains seam to be shut off. Safty? What the hell is that? Is this the American way of doing things? I can't believe that.

The limit of 6s1p was'nt my idea, I just happend to summarize what WE have been talking about at the 2006 LA SAWs. If you guys changed your minds now - ok, do it. But like Ron, I would like to ask you to be at least straight on that. Don't be on the list and show up in LA with 2p, 10000mAh.

I expect you to pay at least this last respect to the agreement!

Joerg

[D.Smock]

Honestly, you guys kill me. If you guys can't stick to your word even for one single year, WHY did you sign the agreement in the first place? True gentlemen you are.


Joerg

Good qusstion sir. I've asked myself the same thing. I'm sorry I don't have a good, "no excuses" answer.:shrug:
Gentleman, no I guess your right.:o I'm just a stupid American rookie SAWs racer who will be running under the current rules, just like my competition.
So please, take me out back and beat my :moon: with the rest of the "gentlemen" running 2p, I'll be in good company.


Doug AKA( Scum of the earth 2P'er)

[jfruge]

You can add my name to the list.
I can't afford anymore than that anyway.LOL

Doug (The Gentleman) Smock

Now that is funny ! :rolls:

Don't be on the list and show up in LA with 2p, 10000mAh. Joerg

Doug, are you planning on comming out to LA?

[fullers fast el]

I am not on the list and I will show up with 1 p but at the motel I will have 2 p I will run what ever every body runs. I agree with the statesmen from Germany. It will be nice when we make the rules and we don't have to insult each other any more Joerg. Ray

[BILL OXIDEAN]

I will pay ANYONE 1,000 bux who can keep an oval master 21, or 24 inch phantom 8 on the water with my Novak 4.5 system on a 2-way pass 50 plus mph with a 1p 5000 mah pack in it....

THEN we'll see weather its a question of weather I know what I'm doing or not..

If the thing was flipping over at every pass with nimh, what on earth makes you think a pack half as light with more burst will make it..
AT THAT SPEED

My system can't even take advantage of all the amp draw a 10,000 can take, what on earth does it matter if I use a battery as heavy as nimh for weight?

I run at LEAST 4 days a week, I know my own s&^# :wave:

[jfruge]

I will pay ANYONE 1,000 bux who can keep an oval master 21, or 24 inch phantom 8 on the water with my Novak 4.5 system on a 2-way pass 50 plus mph with a 1p 5000 mah pack in it....

THEN we'll see weather its a question of weather I know what I'm doing or not..

If the thing was flipping over at every pass with nimh, what on earth makes you think a pack half as light with more burst will make it..
AT THAT SPEED

My system can't even take advantage of all the amp draw a 10,000 can take, what on earth does it matter if I use a battery as heavy as nimh for weight?

I run at LEAST 4 days a week, I know my own s&^# :wave:


Sorry Bill but Lead is cheaper than a 2nd pack! :D

You do what you have to do tho!

[Steven Vaccaro]

I will pay ANYONE 1,000 bux who can keep an oval master 21, or 24 inch phantom 8 on the water with my Novak 4.5 system on a 2-way pass 50 plus mph with a 1p 5000 mah pack in it....

THEN we'll see weather its a question of weather I know what I'm doing or not..

If the thing was flipping over at every pass with nimh, what on earth makes you think a pack half as light with more burst will make it..
AT THAT SPEED

My system can't even take advantage of all the amp draw a 10,000 can take, what on earth does it matter if I use a battery as heavy as nimh for weight?

I run at LEAST 4 days a week, I know my own s&^# :wave:

Bill that's an easy fix. Have Randy give you a larger boat thats meant for the power ANY good brushless system will put out these days.

[BILL OXIDEAN]

I moved up 3 inches in hull, and still a MAJOR handful, actually it handles it, this boat is REAL fast :)

An 05 motor in a 26 inch hull is ridiculous

I don't believe in lead fillers, everything on my boats functions no dead weights

I tried to run a 6,000 and got screamed on by Paul who was running
10,000 2s2p and his boat barely stayed on the water with that..

I go to events to bring home records and trophys 2,700 bux a trip. Not to comply with an agreement that not everyone will adhere to

I can play "gentleman" all day, but the fastest boat gets the medal, and trust me.. they'll be runnin' more than

5000 1p Those guys in Washington are blasting off SO FU##@% hard its pathetic..

I may have misunderstood, but I thought it was a 5,000mah max per
cell and 2p was allowed in n-2 I'm using 2 5000's in paralell what's wrong with that?

I'll adhere to some agreement to please a bunch of people who have little respect for me as a person and boater, all you can talk about is how SMALL everything I run is, and I'm not so smart.. Novak sux yadda yadda yadda..

I've watched things over the past year, and trust me.. I know how you guys talk about my setups and all, You think I can't run a big boat, or I get stuff by luck..

Just beceause I don't need a calculator, or some rocket science formula to
do the damn thing dosen't mean I didn't score 1 point higher than Einstein on my IQ test as a child.. ACTUAL DOCUMENTED GENIUS

People will be sorry when I start using major power..:moon:

I care about my trophy wall, my pretty little sponsors, and the growth of this hobby..

P.S. My 10,000 2s2p is ONE pack sold by MAXAMPS they don't even sell 1p packs to my knowledge.
I also run a 2s 5p 5500mah saddle pack and I LOVE it.. yeah, 5p, but it only totals 5500 mah

[photohoward1]

So who is going to up the ante' with the latest and greatest 30C lipo cells?

As usual it is a Technology race. NIMH or LIPO The best cells give it up the quickest.

I bet Jags shows up with the Best 30C cells he can get and a toaster oven.

I would lay money on it.

This leaves the Guy who bought the 20C cells last year out of it because he can't parallel them.

Good luck boys have fun...

[D.Smock]

Now that is funny ! :rolls:



Doug, are you planning on comming out to LA?

What part of that did you find so amusing Mr. Fruge?

No sir,I won't be coming to LA. You fellas get it done.

Doug

[jfruge]

What part of that did you find so amusing Mr. Fruge?

No sir,I won't be coming to LA. You fellas get it done.

Doug

Doug, I found the first part of this year quote "I can't afford anymore than that anyway.LOL " part funny. It was most likely only funny to me being how you and I have been going around and around on the 1P ver 2P deal... Who Knows... Next year I may have some 2P 10,000ma boats. It is sounding better and better all the time :wave:

[jfruge]

Please remove my name from the list!

Not the Gentleman's Agreement for SAW's list!

Remove me from the LA SAW Sign up list!

I had planned to run a n2 mono (Mamba setup) (22") and a p mono (NUE setup) (33") but with only 1P I guess I will have no chance of doing any good.

I will come out to watch but I am no longer going to run! :rolls:

[D.Smock]

Doug, I found the first part of this year quote "I can't afford anymore than that anyway.LOL " part funny. It was most likely only funny to me being how you and I have been going around and around on the 1P ver 2P deal... Who Knows... Next year I may have some 2P 10,000ma boats. It is sounding better and better all the time :wave:

LOL I guess I'm a little touchy.:o

Good luck in LA. John!!:yeah:
I'll be on my way to Valdosta shortly.:thumup:

Doug :wave:

[eddieh]

gents....

Please keep the slapping down to a minimum!!!

man oh man...:nono:

Ray I look forward to that day too....:wave:

[Dan Chase]

Wilmer, is that your way of asking to be taken off the list? I read it twice and you didn't ask to be taken off??? And Maxamps does make a 2s1p LiPo pack, I have a few, I'll be happy to loan you one.

Your boat and 1P and a little lead weight, not a problem. I'm so sick of hearing about how guys need 2p to keep their boats on the water, what an insult to mine and everyone else's intelligence! Racers have used lead as ballast for years before I started.

Anyway, I'll be there with my slow little 1p boats, my word is more important then any trophy or record could ever be. Records are fleeting and meant to be broken, your word is forever.

[jfruge]

Please add just your full names if you think similar. But please don't argue here - as I will delete it as soon as I see it.



Joerg Mrkwitschka

Sorry Joerg! Feel free to delete any of my pot stirring posts.

[hkusp45]

Man!!

SAWS must be close!!

I cant wait!!

1P or 2P I dont care!! Lets go FAST!!

[D.Smock]

Sorry Joerg! Feel free to delete any of my pot stirring posts.
What he said. See ya!!!!:wave:

[Randy Naylor]

I need to be removed sence most of my packs are 2P at this point.

[D. Newland]

I will pay ANYONE 1,000 bux who can keep an oval master 21, or 24 inch phantom 8 on the water with my Novak 4.5 system on a 2-way pass 50 plus mph with a 1p 5000 mah pack in it....



Just so I'm clear, you'll provide me with your motor and ESC?

[T.S.Davis]

I never signed on. Can I bring out some 2p packs?

haha you SAW guys crack me up. Will the gentlemen be sanctioning this event or is NAMBA? or is IMPBA sanctioning? I haven't been paying attention.

I asked forever ago how the GA would be enforced. It just pisses GA guys off if you question it though.

[BILL OXIDEAN]

Just so I'm clear, you'll provide me with your motor and ESC?

No lead weights either, and yes, I WILL provide the system..

[RECORD 7]

"Everything else is a big f$%&n BULL**** - or you don't know what you are doing."

Wow, can anyone say(type) this or just moderators or just JOERG?

f$%&n BULf$%&nf$%&nf$%f$%&n BULL**** &n BULL**** BULL**** BULL**** BULLL****

I just posted this in case you can.

Jeff

[BILL OXIDEAN]

[

People removed from the original list on their request:
Brian Buass
Darin Jordan
Doug Smock
Bill "Hollywood" Oxidean
Randy Naylor

[Edited by JfromJAGSs 01-26-2007]: Red sentence changed to recommendation.
[Edited by JfromJAGSs 03-22-2007]: Some posts removed
[Edited by JfromJAGSs 09-12-2007]: to keep track who wanted to be removed, I added a separate list

Joerg Mrkwitschka[/QUOTE]

I never REQUESTED to be removed, but the black list looks like some pretty cool cats, ya' got good 'ol Randy, Brian, Smock..

Reminds me of continuation school..

I predicted lipo would cause all this drama.. We should follow the guidlines of other sanctions since NOTHING can be agreed on..

Planes and cars seem to have it in check..

[Patrick M]

Just so I'm clear, you'll provide me with your motor and ESC?

No lead weights either, and yes, I WILL provide the system..

Hey Dave-
Since lead isn't allowed, I'm sure that I can dig up a few lumps of tungsten for ya... :yeah:

[BILL OXIDEAN]

Hey Dave-
Since lead isn't allowed, I'm sure that I can dig up a few lumps of tungsten for ya... :yeah:


You guys are good.. :)

[Dan Chase]

"Everything else is a big f$%&n BULL**** - or you don't know what you are doing."

Wow, can anyone say(type) this or just moderators or just JOERG?

f$%&n BULf$%&nf$%&nf$%f$%&n BULL**** &n BULL**** BULL**** BULL**** BULLL****

I just posted this in case you can.

Jeff

Nope, Mods can't say it either, I edited your post and Joerg's. And just so you don't think I'm playing favorites, I have edited a number of members posts for profanity over the years usually followed by a warning email. But since you are challenging it here I'll give you both your warning's on the forum.

NO PROFANITY!!!
There wont be another warning!

Just so you know what I consider profanity, if you can say it on primetime network television, I usually let it go. The exception would be calling another member a name. Sorry, we don't have a George Carlin list of words you can't use on Rum Runner, if you think you need a list, then you probably should NOT use that word you were thinking about.

[Dan Chase]

Hey Dave-
Since lead isn't allowed, I'm sure that I can dig up a few lumps of tungsten for ya... :yeah:


We use concrete... oh, you mean for the boat?!? ;) :D :yeah:

[jfruge]

2P 2P 2P 2P 2P 2P

Just checking to see if I get a warning email :tongue:

[Dan Chase]

2P 2P 2P 2P 2P 2P

Just checking to see if I get a warning email :tongue:

You spelled it wrong, your OK! ;)

[RECORD 7]

2P is certainly more gentalmanly, arterall doesn't that have something to do with this thread?:)

Jeff

Dan, just keeping you on your toes, you know if I can't find a double standard I can creat one.:)

[properchopper]

Listen guys; I'm just a rookie racer and perhaps the weight of my comments don't carry as much heft as more seasoned racers, but as I see it the agreement was made last January. Is it possible that, as fast as setups are advancing, it's possible that a re-evaluation is not such a bad thing in light of what's been experienced in the last eight months learning curve ? Can we admit that we know more now than we did eight months ago and take a fresh look at what works today without being labeled a turncoat ? Just my 2 cents ; fire away !

[Greg Schweers]

At the last race Darin was playing around with 1P and 2P in his N-2 Sport. After he ran his boat I asked him why his boat was running so much slower, and he said that was a 1P with 30C batteries. Then he put the 2P back in the boat and the boat was at least 5 mph faster. If I was going down to the straight lines, I'd be taking 2P. I'm sure you could probably break the record with 1P, but I would also try 2P. Like Dan says "the extra weight is good." By the way, I only run 1P 3850 in my LSH. At last weekend's race Brian won the Gold Cup (N-2 Sport class) with his new sport boat. The quote of the day was "shovels are for digging."

[Dan Chase]

Listen guys; I'm just a rookie racer and perhaps the weight of my comments don't carry as much heft as more seasoned racers, but as I see it the agreement was made last January. Is it possible that, as fast as setups are advancing, it's possible that a re-evaluation is not such a bad thing in light of what's been experienced in the last eight months learning curve ? Can we admit that we know more now than we did eight months ago and take a fresh look at what works today without being labeled a turncoat ? Just my 2 cents ; fire away !

I think most of us have learned a lot about LiPo setups since then. It was also changed to allow 1p in all the classes, before it was LiPo only in Q and below.

I think what Joerg is upset about is the fact the agreement was up there for so long and now that we have a SAW race next weekend at Valdosta and in just a few months at LA, people are just now asking to be taken off the agreement or worse, plan to run 2p and are not asking to be taken off the list. The excuse of needing the weight is also pretty lame, but whatever.

Personally, I don't really care what someone runs, I just think if they signed on the GA and plan to run 2p be man enough to be asked to be removed, don't just show up and run 2p. That would be a real chicken**** move in my book. The GA is only for this year, that doesn't seem to be to much to ask, but I guess records are more important to some guys then how they get them.

[doozie870]

Im not sure why Im even making this reply, but I just wanted to say to all the saw guys everywhere a lot of people look up to you and your incredible achievments, please work this out.

[D.Smock]

Wow!!!!!Listen guys; I'm just a rookie racer and perhaps the weight of my comments don't carry as much heft as more seasoned racers, but as I see it the agreement was made last January. Is it possible that, as fast as setups are advancing, it's possible that a re-evaluation is not such a bad thing in light of what's been experienced in the last eight months learning curve ? Can we admit that we know more now than we did eight months ago and take a fresh look at what works today without being labeled a turncoat ? Just my 2 cents ; fire away !
Thank you sir! And for the record, I asked to have my name removed several weeks ago.;)
Add lead, I will if I cant keep em on the water with 2p.:yeah:
Have a great weekend guys!!!

Doug :wave:

[T.S.Davis]

Maybe we all need to stop pretending that SAW is for the average Moe off the street.

Joerg would like a self impossed limit from SAW racers His inspiration is varied. Safety, ourageous speeds, and a potential unfair advantage. These concerns assume that "someone" will find a way to use all the power available. He's right to a degree. Somebody will find a way. Eventually. In NAMBA, there are very very few that could pull it off.

Reality check guys, there's always an unfair advantage in SAW racing. Let's all stop pretending that the playing field is dead even. I can't have prop custom fabricated to my specifications. I can't test the best cells until I find the very best available for my application. I haven't the equipment or the knowledge to do so. The average Moe isn't going to design a speedo to take 300+ amps. He can't call up the manufacturer and convince them to build a one off just for him.

SAW racing is not for everyone. It's a pure, undilluted, obscene, quest for speed. Those that accel have done so by exhausting every means available to them. Joergs numbers reflect preparation, engineering, attention to detail, and access to knowledge that the average guy will never have. Is that fair? Who cares! It's racing. We're always trying to find a way to go faster. Out think. out prepare, and out engineer the other guys.

A 1P limit isn't going to provide "parrity". It just changes the parrameters that the best and brightest will engineer to.

[fullers fast el]

It looks like someone has seen the light. now lets end it here . Ray

[JfromJAGs]

Terry, your points are right, but your conclusion is wrong.

Yes, we (JAG's) are able to build custom boats, custom hardware, custom props and custom controllers, we have motors etc. made for us. Actually everything except the radio and the servo is custom made. You should have been there to see the boats yourself.

When it comes to SAW's the level is pretty high - the level of knowledge, experience and dedication you need to have. Others have done similar things, maybe not as much as we, but the top guys invest a lot of time to be competitive. It's more time than money though, it's about 1 year of preparation.

The problem and your missunderstanding is, the higher the power levels are, the more engineering and custom stuff it needs. So the higher the power levels are, the more advantages we (JAG's) have - because we know what it takes to handle the power and we can build stuff for that when you can't buy it.

I do have some safty concerns, but you guys are totally wrong if you think I want a lower power limit because it would be a disadvantage for me to have more power. It's not, believe me.

I'm not going to race SAW boats this year, but I think I already know more about LIPo's than most of you. See, I'm doing my homework.

Joerg

[Mark F]

Good points Terry. I think Joergs good intentions have been lost by those who seek the most power because thats all they know. Yes 2P will give you more power. So much for the GA.

Mark

[BACKEMF]

I'm not going to race SAW boats this year, but I think I already know more about LIPo's than most of you. See, I'm doing my homework.

Joerg


On paper, the pond, SAW or oval????

[Capt Ron]

I think Joergs good intentions have been lost by those who seek the most power because thats all they know. Yes 2P will give you more power.

Mark

not just Joerg's good intentions...

the good intentions of the majority of the active SAWS racers and record holders who origionally signed on to the agreement...

they signed on because they understand the implications of allowing paralleling and what [2p] will mean power, safety, speed, and cost wise in the future...

and they took alot of heat from people wearing blinders who seem to think the more power the better... period

not one of those people signed on to the GA did so for any kind of personal advantage!

and everyone of those SAWS racers on the GA are knowledgeable enough to play [2p] if that's where we end up...

i personally will hold to my word and the GA for '2007

Ron

[JfromJAGs]

On paper, the pond, SAW or oval????
I know some guys think real tests can only be done in boats.

This is plain BS. In case you know what happens in a boat, you can measure things much better and more precisely in the workshop or a laboratory. You need to measure things under real application conditions though, that is measure cells at 150A++. But as always, you need to know what you are doing and you need to know if the workshop tests will reflect reality. In case of testing batteries, yes, it does. Aerodynamic calculation, well, partially.

Only in the workshop/laboratory you can check one thing you are looking at without interference of other unknown influences - like bad driving, wind or rough water. So even if I have not raced SAW boats with LiPo this year, some friends did - and they proved my results right.

You know, in the past years we have set some SAW records. We never had one of the T hydro's in the water before the SAWs. It's not the best way of doing things, but it shows how much you can figure out just by "paperwork".

Joerg

[T.S.Davis]

Some of us SAW racers agreed an having special LiPo limit's for SAW racing in 2007.

couple that to this statement

"I'm not going to race SAW boats this year"

.....um.... what?

This is all some inside joke I wasn't let in on. I just know it.

[Pete B.]

I think I already know more about LIPo's than most of you. See, I'm doing my homework. .........
( Could not put the quote around this but this is what Jorge had to say)

NICE WORK JORGE. I know you know enough english to realize you just insulted most of the guys on this forum, some of which actually listen to/or did listen to what you had to say.

After a comment like that I hope the weather is good up there on your high horse.

[Don Wollard]

not just Joerg's good intentions...

the good intentions of the majority of the active SAWS racers and record holders who origionally signed on to the agreement...

i personally will hold to my word and the GA for '2007

Ron

Me too, Ron. Well ... a bunch of other fellas, also.

Hey ... I am leaving for Valdosta early in the am... got CA all over my fingers and can't type very well on this bloomin laptop. When I get back ... I will add some observation to this little chat.

Now fellas ... lets all be good for a day or so. :yeah: I will bring my wireless just in case someone blast thru 100mph in a P Hydro (on 1p's...by the way). It won't be me ..... I am a JAFO.

Hey what time is that Hooters Party, anyway?

[watts=power]

I am just starting in FE racing and am on a very limited budget


My packs are only rated at 20C, I bought them a while ago when I had money


Why cant I run 2P if I am only using 3200 20C packs


Thats put my max cont discharge at 128 AMps

A guy with a 5000 pack rated to 25C has a 125 Amps discharge

A guy with a 5000 pack rated to 30C has a 150 Amps discharge

So whats wrong with my 2P setup?

Is it wrong because its 2P?

Why bother with how may cells in parallel, if you want limits:

PUT THEM ON THE MAX CONT. DISCHARGE!

That kills 2 birds with one stone;


Folks with older Generation Lipos can run up to 10,000 as the max cont discharge is not above an agreed upon limit

Folks with newer Generation Lipos can run up to 10,000 as the max cont discharge is not above an agreed upon limit


Dont even bother comparing sustained and bust, just max cont discharge

If I got 10,000 MAH rated for 15C, I am at no advantage (Oh wait, I dont have to buy LEAD):eek:

[Dan Chase]

Andrew, you can run 2p and no one will think anything about or give you a hard time. So can anyone else, it's legal in NAMBA and the SAW is a NAMBA sanctioned race. You did not even sign on to the Gentlemen's agreement so you really have nothing to worry about.

Your also right that there is a much better way then just saying a 1p limit. I hope we can have a weight limit someday and not worry about 1p or 2p. I don't think it will happen, but I can dream.

The Gentlemen's agreement came out of discussion at last years LA SAW between the racers there. We knew LiPo was coming and that's when we decided make the agreement. In fact, IIRC, what we discussed then was to only limit Hydro's. The others wanted in with Mono's and other classes. The Gentlemen's agreement only pertains to the guys that signed on, now some of them want out. Oh well, it's their choice and it's legal. The Gentlemen's agreement is not some kind of binding contract, it was just an agreement between friends. I'm standing by my word as I think most of the men that signed onto the agreement will.

What would really bother me personally, is if someone that signed on to it, shows up and runs 2p without being asked to be taken off.

[JfromJAGs]

Some of us SAW racers agreed an having special LiPo limit's for SAW racing in 2007.

couple that to this statement

I'm not going to race SAW boats this year

.....um.... what?

This is all some inside joke I wasn't let in on. I just know it.

Terry, you and some other guys try really hard to find something to feel bad about me. I can't make you to like me or the truth, and I'm not going to try this. If you think you can make up your mind without knowing me personally, well, then do it. If you need an enemy, well, look at me as your enemy.

And, if I'm not allowed to agree with some friends on a test period of LiPo's in 2007, why do you, a person who is our NAMBA chairman, but has'nt raced SAWs, why do you have a mind on LiPo's and SAWs? Why do you try to stir the pot?

Joerg

[JfromJAGs]

I know you know enough english to realize you just insulted most of the guys on this forum, some of which actually listen to/or did listen to what you had to say.

I'm sorry if it insults you if I would know more about LiPo than you do, although I did not ment you personally, as I don't know what you know.

I just refered to the many questions about LiPo's here on the board and to the many answers I have given. Seams like knowledge and sharing it is not well regarded lately...

Joerg

[eddieh]

If you need an enemy, well, look at me as your enemy.

Joerg


Joerg, one thing i will say is Please take your "moderator" hat off when making statements like that, as mods we do not have enemies, we have banned friends LOL....:yeah: seriously i think it is a poor choice of words.....
and folks tend to take words at face value when they read them, I have also replied to numerous threads as an enthusiast, and people got the impression i was speaking for the Site....

This is just my OPINION...:wave:

[Jeff Wohlt]

Screw the gentlemans agreements.

Hell.... who wants to race with some agreement anway? SAWS are for records...not whimpy...I won't if you won't BS. Go by the rules.

All you all are doing is confusing the rest of us with a thread that is waaaaay too long.

On with the breaking records...get'em Joerg!!!

[T.S.Davis]

Joerg, we are not nor will we ever be enemies.

Surely you can understand my interest. Many of your theories are on paper. I'm okay with that. Your homework is done through physics. I like that too. You CAN figure things out without racing. Your not the only one. We all start on paper. I don't have to race SAW to see that the GA is an anchor around the necks of NAMBA racers in LA. Well, you can run under the rule book in LA if you want but you'll get no respect from the gentlemen.

These guys agreed to a limitation. Some were convinced that it was the right/safe/smart thing to do by you. They changed their minds not to gain an advantage but because some of them have discovered that the fears used to convince them have not proven true. In their opinion that is. Based on what ever their opinion is based on. Experience, testing, whatever.

The GA was discussed at the NAMBA SAW at Leg. Got it. Agreement between feinds. Okay. There are names on the list that are not NAMBA members. There are names that have never raced in the NA. They certainly weren't in LA.

People look up to you and your team Joerg. Myself included. I'm merely pointing out the hipocracy. You want limits on racers that you aren't even racing against. For 2008 who knows what the gentlemen will decide on.

[T.S.Davis]

Joerg, one thing i will say is Please take your "moderator" hat off when making statements like that, as mods we do not have enemies,

not to worry Eddie. We are NOT enemies. Period!

[eddieh]

Terry, I know this, I was trying to inject a little levity, folks sometimes read all this stuff and figure there is some bru-ha-ha going, when it's just folks chatting about stuff, I often miss things in here, as straight lines are cool to me only for the awesome display of power, sort of like NHRA drag racing, I can appreciate the rails and funny cars but for scwing factory, I will take the ol' factory wars every time... they are more scale, I'll go back in my dungeon now....

http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Pontiac/1962_Pontiac_Catalina_421_Super_Duty_Hardtop_Black _Side.jpg

[JfromJAGs]

Joerg, we are not nor will we ever be enemies.
I'm no enemy to anyone, but my impression was that some people are trying to create a bogeyman image of myself. I doubt it makes you faster though. But if it makes you feel better, well, do it. Maybe it makes big balls.

People look up to you and your team Joerg. Myself included. I'm merely pointing out the hipocracy. You want limits on racers that you aren't even racing against. For 2008 who knows what the gentlemen will decide on.

a. It was clear way before the LA SAWs last year and way before we even thought about LiPo's that we were not going to attend the LA SAWs in 2007. The decission was made in 2005 when we decided to attend in 2006. But even not attending now, I think I'm allowed to have an oppinion and I'm allowed to talk with people about the future of SAWs.

b. I don't remember exactly, but I think when we talked in LA noone even thought about allowing parallel packs seriously. How could someone imagine the rules would allow 12 cells in a 6 cell class, 24 cells in P and 64 in T ??? Sorry, it simply does't make sence. 2s2p equals 12 NiMH cells and thus should be run in P. Peroid.

c. Basically Tim and me had some long conversations about racing S and T hydro's during 2006 - because we were the only ones in the past 2-3 years who ran them seriously. We came to the conclusion that even with the power of the latest generation of NiMH cells, power itself would not limit us anymore. The limits are the environment - lake size and how to stop the boats without crashing them on every run. That's why we designed solutions for brakes, Tim hydrodynamically, me aerodynamically. We reached the limit's of the lake in LA and we were aware of that.

d. Basically a 6s1p pack of 5000mAh cells can put out about the power I used on the 140mph passes - but the boat will only weight half. That should make acceleration and braking easier, so even 6s1p should be good for at least 150-160mph - on the lake in LA. I would try this in LA. But with 10s1p the aim would be 180-200mph. You can't do that in the park where the lake in LA is located. 10s2p would equal about 30HP. This is not a model boat anymore. It's irresponsible and can be very dangerous.

e. Talking with other racers in LA they even came up with a 6s1p limit for other classes, like mono and offshore - this was NOT my idea! I just put down the agreement. I have said it many times, I personally could see 10s1p used in a T mono or T offshore, even 12-14s1p in 1/8 scale. We just never happen to agree on it because the discussion ended in a big bashing.

So, I'm not the Gentlemen Agreement and I'm not enforcing it - I just put it down. These are thoughts of many other people. Thus it does'nt matter at all if I race in LA this year or if I don't. In case I would race, I would follow because I think it is the right way. BTW, a 6s1p boat is what we are working on at the moment. It will be our winter project and we hope we can race it next summer at the Austrian SAWs.

Terry, please stop trying to see the agreement as a way of how I want to prevent other from going fast.

Imagine I would have wanted 10s2p - would'nt have people thought I wanted it because noone else can have motors and controllers for 10s2p? So, whatever I want is wrong in the eyes of some people. Think about it. The reason for 6s1p is just safty and beeing reasonable.

Joerg

[Don Wollard]

Gents! I am not sure where this is headed … however I decided to jump in because I am disappointed with several of the post I am reading, above.

Lets see now …Once upon a time a Gentleman wrote down a reflection of what some racers felt to be a possible way to sort out the Lipo rules and keep everyone safe for the coming season (2007). Seemed like a good idea …so a few guys decided to jump on the ban wagon BUT ONLY FOR SAW boats. Then …a few guys decided to push to the max and bailed from the agreement. Ok! No problem either. As the season has progressed …. Much has been learned about set ups, etc and the rules of the road are being ‘looked at’ and ‘defined’. Fact is … all of his will sort itself out, anyway.

So what’s so hard about this??????

The NAMBA FE Chair jumped in to share some thoughts. Then … thereafter the beat is back on. Geezz!!!

Terry – I have a question. In your post, above, where you speaking as a racers or in your capacity as NAMBA FE Chair? In the past – NAMBA has always been a membership drive organization and the Chair was a reflection of the members. Indeed – In the past! I am asking because I wanted to get a handle on the direction of this chat.

I'm no enemy to anyone,
So, I'm not the Gentlemen Agreement and I'm not enforcing it - I just put it down. Joerg

Indeed ..there where a lot of other guys involved in the GA, Including myself. Joerg was just the messenger.
Gents …this proposal was for SAW racers in the 2007 season. And…Hey Terry …who limited this things to just NAMBA or the USA, anyway? What’s up with that?

Here is the GOOD NEWS!!!!! The 2007 SAW season is almost over. We can all then celebrate. Lets do a BBQ somewhere and sort out next year! I vote for Doug Smocks house … well because BBQ is ‘pretty good’ in Georgia.

[T.S.Davis]

haha Joerg, we share some of the same kind of redicule. Check this out.

missed your calling...
you should have been a spin-doctor / press secretary for a owned polititon

with no voter mandate for the office he holds...

but wait...

you're both those guys!

do you really think people are buying your spin on Joerg and his intentions?

irresponsible is an understatement!

sorry but i just read one too many of your BS posts...

now quick like a bunny...

pass this PM around your little circle of buddies...

i could give a crap at this point...

Aint it fun to be the chairman? This is the kind of PM's I get regularly from who ever dissagrees with "anything" I've typed. It's the reason I post less and less all the time. It could be a rule, a thought, an observation. Doesn't matter. Every letter must be critiqued. At least we can share that Joerg. Hey we can take turns. Everything that's wrong with racing can be your fault or my fault. We'll switch off.

Inspiring aint it? Suck the joy right out of the hobby.

Don, there has never been a "proposal" in the traditional sense that I'm aware of.

[Jeepers]

I have read many times that FE model boats is a small community.

With threads/ posts like the ones I have just read. Its a wonder it stays so small, with all the bickering, insults, personal attacks, and arguing.

I have read in the last few months/ weeks, insults to moderators from members, and moderators to members. thats low and in poor taste of a public site.

I came on this site to learn from some of the best, but after seeing how alot of people act on this site, it is no longer a joy to get info from this site.(I bet other members feel the same way)

yes i still frequent this site (for good info) but I visit this site with a bit of reluctance. So you guys have fun bickering and such, while I will go and have fun running my MODEL BOATS.

[Andrewg]

Sean

try and think of it this way

The forums are here for assistance, discussion and debate. You take the assistance.

People opinions or interests will vary and somewhere is need to resolve the differences which always starts with the expression of the difference.

The discussion is crucial to forming the agreements that need to be in place for people to get together. The people who have it are driving the future.

What makes peoples relationships great is the ability to stick with a discussion and resolve it, a dismissive attitude and walkouts are not part of any contributors rule book.

[Andrewg]

Sorry repeated the post

[Don Wollard]

[QUOTE=Jeepers]I have read many times that FE model boats is a small community. ..... I have read in the last few months/ weeks, insults to moderators from members, and moderators to members. thats low and in poor taste of a public site. QUOTE]

I am glad that you stick with us. Let me say that Model Boaters are a GREAT group of people. They are passionate, loyal and competitive. They may disagree and bicker ...but at the end of the day these issues get resolved and its back to racing, building and having fun.

The Moderattion Team understand this and we attempt to keep things civil. However - and as Andrew noted, many issues have to be sorted out, no mtter. Hang out with us .... you will see for yourself.

Oh! Its not this site or model boater's who make the hobby small. Its preference. I prefer boats...many of my pals prefer air craft. We have many memebers of this site who prefer cars / trucks and also own a boat or two. Its all a good thing.