FlightPower/MarinePower

[Bill-SOCAL]

I have heard some rumblings that FP may be history? Has anyone else heard this? And if it is true, does it effect MarinePower as well??

I hate to see any vendor have problems, we have so few good ones.

[eddieh]

I haven't heard anything like that... I have heard about upcoming technologies though....

[Steve Rogers]

Hi Guys,
FlightPower is not history. Where a lot of that may be coming from is folks looking for our old Evo products see that they are discontinued but do not yet know of the Eon products taking there place and are assuming the worst.
Were still here!

[Bill-SOCAL]

Good to know. Like I said, we have few enough vendors as it is.

Mods - feel free to remove this thread. I do not want to see false rumors spread. I posted after hearing it from 3 different sources/people. Seemed like it was worth asking the question. Now we have the answer and there is no reason to let this thread continue.

[Steve Rogers]

Thanks Bill!
If you dont mind we can leave this thread up & use it as "The Horses Mouth" if you would like. With this the rumors can be put to rest.

[Flying Scotsman]

Damn it Don. do not tell me that 60C packs will now be available for a very low cost :wave: As, I just squandered my pension on some new? LI-Po batteries

Douggie

[Ub Hauled]

Doug, that very well could be it... but I think that there is something else, it may be a newer and better technology coming out of the drawing boards to the production line...
Don, how soon is soon? I need a few cells, should I wait or is this "surprise" more towards the end of the year?

[Bill-SOCAL]

Sounds a lot like the V2 cells that TP and Enerland have. One of the non-preferred, yet very well regarded and reliable battery vendors who sell packs made with Enerland has packs with their new V2 technology. Basically it significantly increases the number of duty cycles.

http://www.rclipos.com/CoDocs/graph02.jpg

Beyond that I wonder what these new Wunder-Cells that Don is talking about will offer.

I wanted to add a question about where this supposed Lipo shortage is coming from?? Enerland seems to be able to supply plenty of cells, Thunderpower is not having supply issues and the new Hyperion cells/packs are readily available. So I am a bit mystified by Don's statement that lipos are in short supply.

[graill]

wonder if they are the new non fire chemistry and crash tolerant packs i see being tested. would be nice, overcharge, slice, crush, no worries. :)

youtube has a few clips and there are some white pages floating around the net. Though the only c ratings i have seen are 20/40.

keyword: LiFePO4

[Flying Scotsman]

Don, are these new technology batteries LI-PO chemistry or LiFePO4 ?...will current chargers be compatible. The reason I ask is that I was looking at purchasing a new charger, some offer internet upgrades others do not. Just a cautionary note to people who are also considering a new charger
Douggie

[Bill-SOCAL]

If it is LiFePO4 then I cannot understand why it is a big secret:

http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/baffledbybatteries4.shtml

(and 15,300 other hits on Google)

[Darin Jordan]

So... when this new chemistry is released... who is going to push for the NAMBA rule change to get them allowed this time around? :eek:

I nominate Don, since he's the one with the inside info! :yeah:


3. The following battery chemistries will be considered official for electric racing in NAMBA:

a) Ni-chemistry: maximum of Sub-C sized cells with nominal 1.2 volt per cell.

b) Li-polymer chemistry: nominal 3.7 volts per cell.

c) Li-ion chemistry: nominal 3.3 volts per cell.

Racers wishing to run alternative chemistries to those listed will be required to
provide data to the contest official to verify the chemistry’s volts per cell and any special safety requirements. Allowing alternative chemistries will be at the discretion of the Contest Directory based on the data provided.

[eddieh]

Ummmmmmmmmmmm no.......... leave poor ol Don alone his plate is quite full as it is,... hahahaha

I have heard stuff too but am not at liberty to say, it will not require a rule change... ( whose gonna tell LOL)




muhahahahahahahaha

[Meniscus]

Not having the inside line on what's going on, all I can do is speculate. Seems to me it would make sense if the battery manufacturers and cell manufacturers were incorporating lessons learned from Silver Oxide batteries that the military uses. These batteries provide high discharge rates, but are not capable of fire.

Care to comment? Is this speculation even close?

[Darin Jordan]

...Silver Oxide batteries that the military uses. These batteries provide high discharge rates, but are not capable of fire.

Care to comment? Is this speculation even close?

Can't be that... They are saying that it wouldn't require a rule change, so they have to still be Li-Poly with 3.7 nominal V/cell, or Li-Ion tech with 3.3 nomimal V/cell... or NiMH at 1.2V/cell...

[Flying Scotsman]

Hold your water, Fellas!

Darin thx for the vote of confidence :yeah: BUT ...... I dont see there will be a need for such. Everything points to the exact same guidelines for packs as we have now. No crazy chemistries...just improvements, changes in manufacturing techniques and so forth.

BTW - these formulations are NOT on the street yet...... no matter what is being claimed. Product being sold presently likely may not include the updated (new) battery products. But heck...perhaps some retailers have secured a majic potion of some nature. I would be careful if you are 'teched' at a local race...:eek:

Thanks, Don I await the release, but may be pissed off, if I bought old crap, but that is the FE world :)

Douggie

Douggie

[Bill-SOCAL]

Gosh, I feel like I am back in High School where the cool kids know something and the Un-Cool kids have to wait for the Cool Kids to share it with.

"I know something you don't know"....

But it must be big because I've spoken with a couple of battery industry insiders and they have no clue what it could be. But then again they were not aware that there was a shortage of lipos and that all the factories were re-tooling either.

So in the meantime I'll sit back until the Cool Kids can tell us the big secret.

[Ub Hauled]

Thanks, Don I await the release, but may be pissed off, if I bought old crap, but that is the FE world :)

Douggie

Douggie

Doug, I know that there is a Super Duper very affordable motor coming down the pipe and numbers show it's more efficient then NEUs and Lehners combined!!!:eek:
Nah, not really, I cannot back that up.
:yeah:

[Bill-SOCAL]

No, you did not offend me. I was mostly trying to point out how silly I thought it is for an adult to play the "I know something you don't know" game.

Frankly, I cannot wait to see what this new wonder technology is and if it lives up to the hype. Like I said, I know some folks in the business and they honestly have no clue what this could be, so it must be pretty awesome.

[graill]

Not having the inside line on what's going on, all I can do is speculate. Seems to me it would make sense if the battery manufacturers and cell manufacturers were incorporating lessons learned from Silver Oxide batteries that the military uses. These batteries provide high discharge rates, but are not capable of fire.

Care to comment? Is this speculation even close?

hmmm, i dont see the silver oxides being used as they are primarily being used now in the ziplock batteries in remote areas, just unzip the top and the oxygen activates them, then used for small uav's, satnav hooks and limited radio useage. (one config), super safe and disposable in certain environments. though within the last year maybe they came up with something.

[eddieh]

Bill it was not meant the way your taking it don and I got bits and pieces of information, we were told from the source not to say anything, so we won't, and we shouldn't have even said what we did.

[Jim Caldwell]

OK Eddie, no details needed, Just the avaibility timeframe, I ordered over a month ago.

[Darin Jordan]

Can't be that... They are saying that it wouldn't require a rule change, so they have to still be Li-Poly with 3.7 nominal V/cell, or Li-Ion tech with 3.3 nomimal V/cell... or NiMH at 1.2V/cell...

Like I mentioned before... Silver-Oxide would require a rule change... and would likely have a different V/cell I imagine...

More likely just some advances in Lithium tech...

[Ub Hauled]

I second Darin... it was mentioned prior that there would be no rule change...

[Bill-SOCAL]

Just so people have it in their minds, here are the NAMBA rules on battery chemistry:

3. The following battery chemistries will be considered official for electric racing in
NAMBA:

a) Ni-chemistry: maximum of Sub-C sized cells with nominal 1.2 volt per cell.

b) Li-polymer chemistry: nominal 3.7 volts per cell.

c) Li-ion chemistry: nominal 3.3 volts per cell.

Racers wishing to run alternative chemistries to those listed will be required to provide data to the contest official to verify the chemistry’s volts per cell and any special safety requirements. Allowing alternative chemistries will be at the discretion of the Contest Directory based on the data provided.

So, in fact, a rule change is not required. Allowing an alternative cell chemistry is at the discretion of the particular CD at an event.

[Darin Jordan]

So, in fact, a rule change is not required. Allowing an alternative cell chemistry is at the discretion of the particular CD at an event.

That's only good for THAT event... and based on THAT CD... Unless some kind of letter of understanding or other consensus is gained across the country, you'd still have to update the rules to make it officially recognized...

So what happens if the CD is the one requesting the alternate chemistry, and he's the only one that has access to it??? :shrug::nono:

Of course, with only one real "National" event each year where these rules really matter... it likely won't be challenge if someone brings something new...

[Ub Hauled]

I think it would matter if only one participant brought the new stuff...
that would not be a fair event (given the new stuff is that much better)... it had to be in more then half of the participants hands in order to make even a consideration I think.

[Meniscus]

Didn't mean to start this up.

Darin, that makes sense to me. Considering no rule change, must be better efficiency all the way down the line from manufacturing to use, whether that be chemistry, manufacturing techniques, or something else we are not considering.

Graill, there have been some advancements, but I've yet to get all of the info. So, at this time, I chalk it up to hearsay until I see some real specs and not just claims.

[Flying Scotsman]

Bill it was not meant the way your taking it don and I got bits and pieces of information, we were told from the source not to say anything, so we won't, and we shouldn't have even said what we did.

Eddie, it is pretty easy to guess who the source is. So, FlightPower tell us the release date.

Douggie

[T.S.Davis]

Bill, if it makes you feel better I'm not cool either. I'm a MarinePower driver, my best bud is one of the few sources for them in the US, and I don't know jack squat about any new nutt'n bout nutt'n. I know my MarinePower cells are stronger than my FlightPower cells but I sure don't know why.

FE has always been like this. Probably always will be. We play with electronic toys. Like all things electronic, as soon as our stuff leaves the factory there's some brainiac savant inventing something better. Remember Nicd 1500, 1800 2000, 2400. Then Nimh 2600, 3000, 3300, 3700, 4200, 4500's. Oh and motors, Trinity, 700bb, 700neo, Lignting Neo's, Makita, Milwuakkee, SS1's, Aveox, Hacker, Lehner, Nemisis, Neu.......ugh.

I've given up on getting my timing perfect. I got laps to do. There's fun to be had and I aint wait'n for nobody.

[T.S.Davis]

Of course, with only one real "National" event each year where these rules really matter... it likely won't be challenge if someone brings something new...

HAHA Which means you will ikely have to get it past me. God like powers! Life is good. I hope I'm the only one with the tech. Fingers crossed. LOL

[Darin Jordan]

I've given up on getting my timing perfect. I got laps to do. There's fun to be had and I aint wait'n for nobody.

That's exactly how I feel... buy what you need/want today... when tomorrow is today... repeat... :yeah:

[Bill-SOCAL]

That's only good for THAT event... and based on THAT CD... Unless some kind of letter of understanding or other consensus is gained across the country, you'd still have to update the rules to make it officially recognized...


That may be a desirable thing to do, but as the rule is currently written it is not required. And yes, it is an event by event thing at the discretion of the CD for that event.

I am not aware that the NAMBA rules allow for a "letter of understanding" or anything like it.

Once FlightPower releases the information on their new technology then we will be better able to determine what, if any, changes are needed.

[T.S.Davis]

when tomorrow is today... repeat... :yeah:


I used to do that with my hair. Lather rinse repeat. Haven't that in 20 years.

[Twinpowered]

From the descriptions, it's likely the new cells use a new form of nano enhanced cathodes. If it is, think of it like a mix from LiPo and A123 technology: since the chemistry does not change, voltages and rules remain the same. But a better cathode allows for higher charge rates, and above all: higher cycle counts. So effectively it makes the cells safer and cheaper to use.

[Ub Hauled]

that sounds like a good theory to me...

[Flying Scotsman]

From the descriptions, it's likely the new cells use a new form of nano enhanced cathodes. If it is, think of it like a mix from LiPo and A123 technology: since the chemistry does not change, voltages and rules remain the same. But a better cathode allows for higher charge rates, and above all: higher cycle counts. So effectively it makes the cells safer and cheaper to use.

Oh, I love the European logic. This member should get free batteries for life from any manufacturer :)

Douggie

[Teach]

Remember Nicd 1500, 1800 2000, 2400. Then Nimh 2600, 3000, 3300, 3700, 4200, 4500's.

I remember my first 1200SCR pack......It was hell trying to gear for 4 minutes!

[eddieh]

but this other fella doesn't seem to be under the same constraints
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1035583&highlight=eon

[Bill-SOCAL]

Well, if that is in fact the situation I fail to see how these FP/MP cells are much different than the Hyperion G3, Enerland Ver2, and the TP V2 cells.

The latest generation of lipo cells seem to offer better performance, improved cycle life, and higher safe recharge rates.

It also makes it clear that the "lipo availability" problem mentioned earlier was really a FP availability issue, as I said nobody else seemed to be having issues making cells.

So once FP gets to market there will be an even greater choice of better performing lipo cells, which cannot be a bad thing.

[eddieh]

Bill I am sure that simple thread doesn't list all the differences, but out of curiosity what is the voltage rating at full capacity for the
Hyperion G3, Enerland Ver2, and the TP V2 cells that you mention? it's funny that you seem to bait for answers just because you have another answer ready, are YOU playing the I know something that you don't know game now ? LOL... :yeah:

[Don Wollard]

it's funny that you seem to bait for answers just because you have another answer ready, are YOU playing the I know something that you don't know game now ? LOL... :yeah:

What a hoot, Ed!

[Bill-SOCAL]

Nope, just going by what I read. The Hyperion and other cells I mentioned are all advertising that they deliver better voltage under load, have higher numbers of discharge cycles, and can be charged at higher rates, some even say up to 6C. But all of the cells are still rated at the normal nominal 3.7 volts per cell for lipos. Enerland also says that while you can charge at higher rates it will reduce the total number of cycles. Others do not make statement but rather say that you can get both, very high charge rates AND increased cycle life.

Yours and Don's posts are the posts that hint at some revolutionary breakthrough in technology. But the RCG post does not appear to support that. It makes the Eon-X cells seem to be very similar to the cells I talked about.

So when you say that you are sure there are differences it is you two who are hinting at something more. The RCG post does not hint at anything beyond that.

[Ub Hauled]

They say EON-X is a nice cell... good power and higher voltage... I am trying to find out a bit more...

[ghostofpf1]

I read this on another vendors forum re: flightpower:

"Well, I do know that they dont have have cells anymore and their old customers are contacting Enerland directly. "

If it's simply a rumor it's a widespread one

Steve

[eddieh]

Bill, I am NOT an engineer, but I do beleive that folks in this field are always looking to improve their products, we were told some behind the scene stuff, but it is NOT revolutionary unobtanium based happy horse sh%t, that will require rule changes my understanding was better chemistry, higher deliverables, etc which is all great, I was in valdosta running the older flight power 25c packs and on 1 p to boot, and I had absolutley now issues... that said could they be done on other cells? I would have to say yes, but these cells are over three years old and continue to provide excellent performance.


Jan from what i have read the evo x cells are performing VERY well, I have not tested them personally but as was said above some folks have been testing them VERY hard and then there is this gentleman's observation

"quoted from RCGroups"
I have been testing the EON-X for some time now, its quite a big uppgrade from EON and current Lipo batterys on the market today. The resone why they bring out EON-X now already is becas there have been production problem with the EON, to fix this and have full production we get EON-X, first out will be the 30C, and its much more powerfull than the EON33 for example and other 30-35c rated packs on the market, in fact the 25c EON-X is up with same power as todays 30-33c rated packs, testing in 3D heli a prototype version that is not even perfectly matched, it holds up to 3,75v/cell avg and other packs in same size and spec holds 3,5-3,6v/cell. Maby the most importand aspects of the EON-X will be the fast charge and sycle life even at high C loads.

well it certainly sounds good to me higher voltages and underated c ratings certainly sound very good...

I know Bill is going to come back and say enerland cells are enerland cells, which is true but the construction, and make up of the cell can make a difference I mean chevy made the chevette and corvette both are chevrolets but.........:yeah:

anyway i don't want to turn this into a pizzin contest so .....


http://www.expressfly.org.uk/shop/images/expressfly%20Flightpower%20EON%20X%20battery%20lip o.jpg

[Bill-SOCAL]

It looks like we are talking about the same thing. Several vendors are coming out with similar cells. The next step in the development of the technology. I got a mistaken impression from the tone of some posts. It appears that the FP/MP are similar to these others.

I am not sure who is making FP/MP cells. I thought I recall that they had their own factory that they maybe bought from Enerland. But I am pretty sure that Enerland is not making them.

And Enerland has their own line a Ver2 cells, so it is true that within a product line there can be differences.

[Flying Scotsman]

Bill, I am NOT an engineer, but I do beleive that folks in this field are always looking to improve their products, we were told some behind the scene stuff, but it is NOT revolutionary unobtanium based happy horse sh%t, that will require rule changes my understanding was better chemistry, higher deliverables, etc which is all great, I was in valdosta running the older flight power 25c packs and on 1 p to boot, and I had absolutley now issues... that said could they be done on other cells? I would have to say yes, but these cells are over three years old and continue to provide excellent performance.


Jan from what i have read the evo x cells are performing VERY well, I have not tested them personally but as was said above some folks have been testing them VERY hard and then there is this gentleman's observation

"quoted from RCGroups"
I have been testing the EON-X for some time now, its quite a big uppgrade from EON and current Lipo batterys on the market today. The resone why they bring out EON-X now already is becas there have been production problem with the EON, to fix this and have full production we get EON-X, first out will be the 30C, and its much more powerfull than the EON33 for example and other 30-35c rated packs on the market, in fact the 25c EON-X is up with same power as todays 30-33c rated packs, testing in 3D heli a prototype version that is not even perfectly matched, it holds up to 3,75v/cell avg and other packs in same size and spec holds 3,5-3,6v/cell. Maby the most importand aspects of the EON-X will be the fast charge and sycle life even at high C loads.

well it certainly sounds good to me higher voltages and underated c ratings certainly sound very good...

I know Bill is going to come back and say enerland cells are enerland cells, which is true but the construction, and make up of the cell can make a difference I mean chevy made the chevette and corvette both are chevrolets but.........:yeah:

anyway i don't want to turn this into a pizzin contest so .....

I am releaved, no wonder power cells. I can now sleep with an easy mind. I bought the best I could afford...But there are dark clouds ahead....progress

Douggie

[Darin Jordan]

Guys... let's keep in mind that it's WAY more than just the batteries... An extra .15V/cell under load is roughy equivalent to 1320 RPM on a 4S, 2200KV setup... (Check my math... .15V/cell * 4-cells = .6V * 2200KV = 1320RPM... right?)

That's going to help some, and be unnoticable by others... it's all going to depend on how well they deal with the rest of the setup and adjust to it...

Bring'em on! When I feel I'm being beat by cells, and not by props, setup, and driving, then I'll worry about getting new cells... unless I need some before then... ;)

[Don Wollard]

Guys... let's keep in mind that it's WAY more than just the batteries... An extra .15V/cell under load is roughy equivalent to 1320 RPM on a 4S, 2200KV setup... (Check my math... .15V/cell * 4-cells = .6V * 2200KV = 1320RPM... right?)

That's going to help some, and be unnoticable by others... it's all going to depend on how well they deal with the rest of the setup and adjust to it...

Bring'em on! When I feel I'm being beat by cells, and not by props, setup, and driving, then I'll worry about getting new cells... unless I need some before then... ;)

Excellent, Darin. Exactly what the case is. I cant recall cells winning a race that I have witnessed. Lot of other factors ......

[Don Wollard]

Ok Fellas. I think I will close this one.

Someone starts a rumor :eek: ..... and in fact it was only hearsay. FP is good to go and planning there next series of product. Nothing any company wouldn't do with improvements/upgrades/changes to there product line.

BTW - Bill. Test of the new FP series have not been published or officially released by the factory. Just for your 411#.

Douggie. get the best deal you can and get boating. Its all about bang for your buck....right? Are changes coming...you bet! They always come...its another racing season, right?