Question?

[Mike Zaborowski]

What type of hull is the best (in your opinion) to begin with in FE RACING, not running.

Disclaimer: This is just your opinion and will only be interrupted as such. BY ALL..

Regards.


Michael "Grimracer" Zaborowski.

[Jeff Wohlt]

I'm guessing you are thinking beginner and non-racer with minimal experience, I would only think a good 05 mono would be the best. Cheap, fast and easier to tune...compared to hydros.

The cracker box is great for beginners but they seem harder to keep upright.

This is my opinion only and don't get me wrong, all you mono tuners out there, monos can be hard to set up for blistering speeds but seems easier than most others for the low experienced.

[KevinW]

In spite of a dislike of monos, I would argue that the best option for beginners would be a mono. A self-righting, .05 power, 6 cell mono, such as an ECO hull. Maximize the run time, minimize the recovery time.

Assuming that the ECO class does catch on. Or a self-righter is adequately competitive in the existing mono classes.

Kevin W.

[will_myster]

05 mono's are easy to maintain, and handle compared to some of those hydros out there. A 6cell, wether is be a mod or stock 05, in a semi deep vee mono i think wouldn't be a bad place to start. Never the less there is always eco

[Ray Bidwell]

The eco's will never compete in the 05 classes because of submerged drive but seems like the perfect beginner boat.

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Mike Zaborowski
What type of hull is the best (in your opinion) to begin with in FE RACING, not running.


12 cell Sport hydro. But I've had a reason to be prejudiced in this direction.

Andy

[will_myster]

I think either i reading this wrong or you are. Im not saying that they will compete in each others grounds what im saying is thats the area which would be a good place to look and start. There is always LSH. I think that alot of people out there want to go fast, with not alot of skill, to put it simple, no turtles and no crappy handling. LSH could also be considered as an alternative. my 2c

[Drobie]

Originally posted by Mike Zaborowski
What type of hull is the best (in your opinion) to begin with in FE RACING, not running.

Unless you are going to be doing a lot of travelling to regional and national events, start first by finding out what might already be running in your area.

It takes two to race.

Although new to FE, I haven't been able to discern any difference in the basic cost of setting up, or difficulty in running a mono or hydro. In both cases, the biggest bite goes to batteries, radio gear and charger.

We're starting a club running 12 cell sport hydros here in Madison. We could have saved some money running 6 cell boats, but we had this testeterone issue.

Being from Eau Claire, you might want to check with the guys in Edina. http://www.emyc.org

[Drobie]

Originally posted by Mike Zaborowski
What type of hull is the best (in your opinion) to begin with in FE RACING, not running.

Mike,

In looking at your website, I don't think it's a stretch to assume that your question might be coming from a marketing perspective.

If that's the case and you were to rephrase the question, you might get different answers. If you are truly interested in an entry level boat, you may want to provide a bit more detail like do you have a preference for mono or hydro, is there a club in your area, do you want to just race for fun or do you have dreams of competing on a regional and/or national level?

Reading this thread so far kind of raises an eyebrow with me. I'm not singling out anyone, because I know everyone has an opinion and we're all just trying to help. However, I feel compelled to comment in the interest of promoting the hobby.

Although I I know I risk getting slammed for this, here it goes....

great for beginners but they seem harder to keep upright.
The ECO's will never compete in the 05 classes because of submerged drive
whether it be a mod or stock 05, in a semi deep vee mono
easier to tune...compared to hydros.

Sometimes, I could compare the advice to beginners that I read here as comparable to trying to make an investment decision after listenting to CNBC for a couple of days.

Do we assume that "beginners" know what a mod or 05 is? Or the difference between a semi-deep vee and whatever else is an option? Or what it takes to tune a mono or hydro? Would most beginner's want a boat that's "harder to keep upright"?

And in needing to turn both ways, installing trim tabs, and keeping the boat from porposing, why is a mono easier than a sport hydro?

Sorry guys, but when someone asks for options for beginners, I don't think we need to dazzle them with the lingo. Give 'em some more specific choices and setups.

(Like a UL-1, Taifun or Big Splash or any 24" hydro with a 700BB or 700 Neo motor, Fuller or Fine wedge rudder and Graupner 1157 drive systems. These because they're what we've been considering and buying as "beginners". Mono guys could fill in their own blanks.)

Make easy for people to get into the sport. Answer beginner questions with a little more empathy.

[Mike Zaborowski]

Doug

Your right if I was to re-word the question I would get different answers (maybe I should have) never the less I like to let the customer requirements fall out of the conversation and not try to sway anybody. It sound like you know what the heck you are doing and maybe should hire you!!

I have gone to a few of the Edina meets but have not had the chance to talk to anybody. I hope to race with them next summer, which would be cool. E-Ninja S1 here i come!!

I was a reseller of hobby products for 10 years but have now lost focus of the market. I still have a happening thing going on with the Nitro guys but have a lot to learn about FE. I like what i see in FE and i want in!!

Buy the way we do have a club in the area it is a nitro club and anytime you are in the area look me up.

Website: http://webpages.charter.net/grimracer/cwmbc

Does Hobbyhorse help you guys out much? We never see much there when we stop.

P.S. Damons rules!!


Mike "Grimracer" Z

[rcrdps]

Well, when I was searching for my boat, here's what I was thinking. SPEED! Monos were supposed to be the slowest, Cats would be faster, then hydros, then riggers. Riggers were ugly, hydros were too expensive, monos were too slow, so naturally I now have three catamarans. What actually probably decided most of it was that the hobby shop had a GP Wildcat SS and a GP Stinger. I chose the cat since it should theoreticaly be faster. Like I said though, that's what I thought......not now of course. If someone watched offshore racers alot then naturally that's probably what they'll want in R/C. Same goes for Miss Bud, or the F1 tunnels. If the local hobby shop, or the vendors in the RCBM don't have exactly what they want then they'll just end up with what's in stock. You're probably not going to be selling them their first boat. The hobby shop will. It will be their second or third. They will know what they really want by then, but still won't have much skill. Considering they probably saw monos at the local park that's what they'll be looking for.....something to run with the other guys. What's class has the most entrys? Monos, right? I know I wanted to get an ElectroV with a speed 700 when I first saw them at the park. They're not going to care which is easier to set up. They'll find out that AFTER they bought what they thought as cool.
So to sum that up. They're likely going to buy a mono...possibly a cat. Everyone likes speed 700s. They have decent speed, price, and maintenance. ECO's aren't likely to instantly impress the new comer. Why? No roostertail. The bigger the rooster, the slower it can go and still be satisfying. Another thing to consider is most newbee's don't want to build much. RTR is the key. Of course fully ready to run means a big price up front....so kit without most electronics....just maybe the motor. Hmm... that's not much of a summary is it? I'll stop babbling. That's my opinions though. I know some of them were already mentioned. Hope this helps.

Gene

[Drobie]

Mike,

I have a brother who has an MBA in marketing. Maybe I learned a little through osmosis.):p

I think it's a tough crowd to market to, but based on the American buying public, I think there is room for turn key "custom" products.

My next boat will be a wood scale hydro. I'll buy a wood kit, laser cut and based on a real unlimited boat's design, and will be very happy if it comes with a turn fin, wedge water pickup rudder, direct drive system and even a choice of (tested) motors.

I've said this before as way of an example: By far, the fastest growing class in AMYA (the American Model Yatching Assoc.) is the Thunder Tiger Victoria. It's inexpensive, easy to get on the water, it sails well and the class allows for modest modifications that enhance performance but "only" add $100 to the overall price. (Replacement sails are the greater part of that upgrade and most of the cost).

And I'm about to again say something that will open me to getting slammed here:

If you are doing market research on what will sell to FE
beginners, I'm not so sure this forum is the place to find those answers.

Let me quantify that....I'm going to make an uneducated off-the-cuff guess that the active participants in this forum have upwards of 5 years experience in FE. The average aptitude is way above "normal" and the support level and willingness to help is unparallelled but the effort and knowledge required to enter the sport through this portal is still relatively pretty high.

If a true beginner from the masses interested in racing comes here and asks what a good boat is and is told "[sic] try a Crackerbox but maybe not because they flip or maybe a deep vee mono with a mod or an 05 and stay away from hydros because mono's are easier to tune", he's probably going to run down to the local hobby shop and buy whatever MRP, Kyosho, Traxxas or Hobbystar is on the shelf and looks cool.

Another point about AMYA is the vast majority of their classes are one design, with approved manufacturers for hulls. NAMBA and the FE world in general are wide open, with the exception of the Crackerbox. One design racing, as it exists is effectively at the club level only.

I think the sport could attract a lot more people if there were a truer one design hydro class. Pundits will say it's LSH. LSH is far from what I'm talking about. I'm talking about going to the starting line with a hull and equipment that you know is essentially the same, and therefore as competitive as the other boats in the race. The only difference is in how you drive and how much time you spend preparing and maintaining your equipment.

So, if you come up with a series of kit(s) for 700 BB powered, 24", 12 cell hydros, wood and/or ABS, based on essentially one design (but with slightly different looks for variety), I'll talk Jim Biersach at Hobby Horse and Doktor's Hobby World in Madison and the Cudahy News and Hobby in Milw. into stocking them and we'll build a racing series here in central WI.

Another idea on marketing...promote from the bottom up. Develop a boat, get 5 or ten guys in the area racing them, and then sell the idea to the next club down the block. Keep going and pretty soon a nationally recognized class is a shoe-in. (AMYA does that too...you have to have 20 boats registrered before a class is officially sanctioned.)

I think the demand is out there, it just has to be organized and promoted. My friend and I got into FE last summer because the adoring public asked for it. I organized a "Model Boat Regatta" in conjunction with a local town festival. I pulled about 40-60 sail and scale guys from mostly central WI. The one question I was asked most often during the weekend by the observing public was "when do the races start". (Yatch racing doesn't count in a world where the highest grossing sport is NASCAR.)

PT Barnum would have given them what they wanted, so for our "Second Annual...." we will too. We'll have FE hydro racing every hour on the hour.

(You'd better have a few kits ready for us to sell because the demand will be there. I still have a list from last year of 8 or 10 guys who showed interest. We just haven't yet made it easy enough for them to get boats and get on the water.

[mark]

i would have to agree with Andy that 12 cells sport hydros are the best boat to start with. the 3rd boat that was added to my collection was Andy's UL 125 12 cell hydro. it is good if you was a fast boat for not all that much. i set mine up with a stock motor ( 700 BB ) and it went 30.5 mph, in 1 foot chop no less!
it always draws a crowd when i take it out for a spin, great looking boat. anyways, just my opinion.

-mark

[toyboy4145]

Just a few things: I am new to FE. My first boat was a scratchbuilt hydro. I joined this forum a couple of month after building that boat. I have posted several topics, the majority of them being beginner questions. I have received nothing but help and support. I have only minor experience with r\c cars but i think everyone here is involved with more than just boats. I think its great that you are willing to promote the hobby, but dont slam the guys here. This is one of the best groups of people out there. I'm done ranting now. Just wanted to state my opinion.

[will_myster]

Our target audience is not really the extreamlly young, i beleive co ordination is not a problem, neither do i think do i think driving is a real issue for the beginner classes. We need some thing that appears to look simple enough to use but have feature's like speed and handling, i must say this would make us more advertising to outsiders and others of the r/c community. A boat with snail like performance is not going to look advertising. LSH will be future, if we make great rtr kits. And when a beginner comes along we say LSH is great. We let them have a go at our boats they really like it and tell them that they guys, there's some great ARTR/RTR kits out there give them ago. You then would get a boat that looks cool, goes reasonably quick, and handles well. If i was a beginner thats what i would be after.

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

This post wasn't necessarily aimed at me but I want to point out a few things.

For a beginner there is noting wrong with a LSH, the boats are large enough to not worry about flipping it every heat, they are simple to set up and have reasonable run times.

Here's one thing to consider, overall cost.

LSH equals 12 cells, 2/6 cell packs at x amount of dollars for one 4 minute run. Those same two packs could be run in a 6 cell boat for lets say 8 minutes. Batteries cost guys, if you want to have some fun down at the pond with your LSH you probably should have 3 sets of batteries. HMMM, I know mine cost me about 7.00 a cell unassembled, 7.00 x 36 = 252.00 in batteries alone. Maybe the solution to that is a "spec" pack, but what size? RC2400 on the cheap will cost you a pretty penny as well and you need runtime for LSH.

A 6/7 cell stick pack boat is where to start. My suggestion would be a 24" mono gear drive with a Chameleon. The boat is big enough to handle some chop and the gear drive gives you the flexibility for long runtime with small sacrifices in speed.

Paul

[Drobie]

Originally posted by Paul
Hello Guys,

For a beginner there is noting wrong with a LSH, the boats are large enough to not worry about flipping it every heat, they are simple to set up and have reasonable run times.

Here's one thing to consider, overall cost.

I know mine cost me about 7.00 a cell unassembled, 7.00 x 36 = 252.00 in batteries alone. Maybe the solution to that is a "spec" pack, but what size? RC2400 on the cheap will cost you a pretty penny as well and you need runtime for LSH.

My suggestion would be a 24" mono gear drive with a Chameleon.
Paul

Point well taken, Paul. However, a Turbo trans gear unit costs 69.95 and a Hughey geared about $60. A pack of spec 2400's can be had for about $25 (times the 3 extra packs needed to run 12 cells equals $75). That makes an insignificant difference in cost.

Mono vs. Hydro comes down to personal taste, so one design spec kits ought to be available for both.

[Dan Chase]

I guess I'll add my $0.02, since I am in charge of new members for our club, I see what newbies want in a boat on a regular bases. The 3 most common hulls in order I see the newbie attracted to are:

1) Sport Scale Hydros

2) Offshore

3) Tunnel Hulls

Notice a trend there? They are ALL scale like boats! The next highest criteria is cost. Newbies in general don't want to drop $500+ into a hobby they don't know they will stay with. The last but maybe the most important is when they decide they want to get into FE, they want to do it now. The lack of off the shelf RTR's really hurts the sport IMHO. We need to strike when the iron is hot, not tell them they have to wait 3 months for a competitive boat.

The two classes proposed for this year fill the voids in my opinion. LSH adds an affordable, fast & stable scale boat for the newbie. The ECO class adds a very affordable RTR.

One other thing I see newbies wanting is run time, both these classes offer extended run time from the normal 1:30 minutes.

Most current RTR's do more to hurt the class then they do good. I see more novice drivers frustrated by the slow speeds.

My take on this is what rc expierence does this new person have?? This is the most critical factor in considering what kind of boat a new racer should be getting. A true newbie with little or no driving expierence should not jump into an 8 or 12 cell class. Time and time again I have seen new guys in way over their heads trying to drive a boat they have no idea how to control. They cause problems to other racers and end up with confidence problems themselves. Boats are not an easy thing to drive. Driving well is even harder and you compound the problem 3 fold by adding a fast boat to the mix.

I thing 6 cell, perferrable stock class or M2 or an Eco boat if that class goes through. Mono would probably be the first choice but hydro would work if it was kept to a smaller cell count class. This gives the new guy a chance to get a feel for driving, should make him reasonably competitive with others and allows him to gain some confidence. Of course this senerio changes depending on rc expierence but fast boats in the hands of unskilled people cause problems for everyone who is involved in that race.

[Pooley929]

Just over a year ago I got my brand new Kyosho viper, It took so much trial and error and cutting everything to make that thing fast that I even gave up for mounths after it fipped and everything got wet and never worked again ( at the pond by myself or with my dad and his best friend who had a Blue streak and a Blade runner my boat seemed fast "faster than the other two" till I went to the pond where NOFE meets( Boy was I pissed) then I went back to it did more cutting and epoxying now with some knowledge under my belt from reading here and guys at the pond its a cool boat to have its fast mabe 30mph we use it as a rescue bost to pick up flippers but If I really didn't like what I saw at the pond I would have geven up cuz lets face it the kit boats that I had worked with were.......(well I don't wanna offend anyone) now after much wasted money I have a few nice boats so I learned the hard way .

So when I see that guy at our pond looking around all day talking all day asking questions all day I try to decourage him from going out and getting one of these boats I think the best way to start is with a EV you can get that thing in the water for $220.00 bare min.( EV hull$25. from anywhere 700bb $25.00 from anywhere,Lynx sport with esc $69.99 Hobby people, hardware from anywhere $100. that includes motor mount . and it will be pretty fast and you can decied where you wana go form there I wish I had someone guiding me at the beginning I could have saved mush dough.

BTW I never had a EV nor do I have one now, but I can see and it would have been a better start