motor thoughts

[rc_speed]

Hello,
In LSO and LSH, we run Aquacraft UL-1 motors. (I know this is 1 of 3 choices that we have, but the other 2 tend to be a little slower).

I would like everybody to think about the possibility that we select a new motor to use for club racing. I would like to find a motor that is approx. the same kv as the UL-1 motor, yet is a better quality motor for the same price or less.
My thoughts are that if we all use the same motor, then we would still have equivalent level boats. If we use a motor of the same KV as the UL-1, then if anybody goes to race a NAMBA authorized race, like the NATS, then there wouldn't be much retuning for the UL-1 motor to run well. I am also hoping that whatever motor is chosen will help eliminate the problem of the motor taking out the electronics in the boat when it decides to go bad or the other problems that these motors have caused.
I figure that we have all winter to find a new motor choice, if everyone agrees to this. I also hope that if we all go together and buy them in bulk that we would be able to get a good discounted price.

The UL-1 motor comes with a boat that includes a 60 amp esc. This is 60 continuous amps. I put my eagletree recorder on a boat in the early part of the year. In a race, I averaged 90 amps with bursts of up to 120 amps. My guess is that this is probably typically for everybody. I think this is why the motors go bad is that we are running them harder than they were designed for. Remember that it comes in a RTR boat with a smaller prop which is plastic.

sincerley,
tim

[fastalarid]

Good idea Tim. I would like to schedule a meeting -- CLUB CHRISTMAS PARTY ON DEC 4 1 PM AT 22 HUDSPETH. So pass the word out to all members. Tim see what you can find out about motors to discuss for next season.

[Jeepers]

funny, I have been saying this for awhile..................

I have thought about this ever since I got into this class last year. I discussed different motor options with other racers at Nationals and the Winter Warm Ups.

However with the prices of raw materials jumping something like 1000% (Neo magnet material) cheaper and better quality is not gonna happen. Did you guys notice that the UL1 motors went up $20.


There is a big discussion going on over at International Waters about the UL1 motor and other motor options. check it out under the Fast Electric section titled "AQ 36-56-2030 (UL1) MOTOR".

After getting my hulls dialed in a bit more on these motors. (instead of swapping between hulls) I only had 1 motor failure this year and that was an OLD blue can SV27 motor.

[hydronut]

I'm pretty pleased with the current motor selection. I have ony had 1 fail in the last 3 years. I'm still running the UL-1 motor I ran in the nats in Michigan over 2 years ago. I have not fried any ESc's. I doubt that you'll find anything cheaper that is higher quality. And another point is we are a NAMBA club and the current rules seem to be working for most racers, So I have a hard time being in favor of a major change based on a couple of failures. And I REFUSE TO RUN ANY PRODUCT THAT COMES FROM HOBBY KING!!!! So I hope you look elseware.

[rc_speed]

I'm not looking at Hobby King. Right now, I'm looking at Leapord and Fiego motors as possibilities.

As far as Namba and the current rules, I do not believe that there is anything in NAMBA that says we need to follow their exact class specs. I just want to find a motor that is very similar to the ul-1 motor which doesn't cost a fortune (I don't mean cheaper....I just dont want it to be super expensive) that is of a higher quality.

I have fried several ESC this year due to bad motors. I had one, this year, that took out the esc on its first run. I am also starting to think that people frying their batteries may also be caused by something wrong with the motor. A 35C 5000mah battery should be handle 175amps continuous. This is way above what I measured. It is even above the peak that I measured.

Maybe instead of replacing the motors, we just add a 4th possible motor to what we do in club racing. Then people can still run their ul-1, sv-27, or proboat motors, if they would like to. As long as the new motor is similar in Kv, etc. then they won't have any advantage other than motor longevity.

[hydronut]

I'm not looking at Hobby King. Right now, I'm looking at Leapord and Fiego motors as possibilities.

As far as Namba and the current rules, I do not believe that there is anything in NAMBA that says we need to follow their exact class specs. I just want to find a motor that is very similar to the ul-1 motor which doesn't cost a fortune (I don't mean cheaper....I just dont want it to be super expensive) that is of a higher quality.

I have fried several ESC this year due to bad motors. I had one, this year, that took out the esc on its first run. I am also starting to think that people frying their batteries may also be caused by something wrong with the motor. A 35C 5000mah battery should be handle 175amps continuous. This is way above what I measured. It is even above the peak that I measured.

Maybe instead of replacing the motors, we just add a 4th possible motor to what we do in club racing. Then people can still run their ul-1, sv-27, or proboat motors, if they would like to. As long as the new motor is similar in Kv, etc. then they won't have any advantage other than motor longevity.
I'm not at all in favor of making current NAMBA Legal Motors illeagal in a NAMBA club, I am well aware on the "Clubs can do what they want" section of the rules. the motors have worked for a greater majority of the club to this point.
There are other factors that need to be considered then just matching KV when adding an additional motor to the mix. All specs and cost need to be closely matched before it can even be considered.
As for batteries now being an issue, some of us are running batteries that are well over 2 seasons old with no issues, so thats a hard arguement to accept.

[Teach]

I would be open to motor ideas.

Also I would care if it were a Hobbyking product. I like thier junk.

[Darin Jordan]

None of my business, but something to keep in mind... the current offerings for P-Limited are all 6-Pole motors... Many of the replacements mentioned tend to be either 2-Pole or 4-Pole...

One of the reasons that the P-Ltd motors work is because they are 6-Pole and have the torque to power the heavier boats... 2-Poles won't cut it...

Just something to keep in mind.

[rc_speed]

so do you have a suggestion on a motor that will provide the same power and speed as we see in the UL-1 motors in our LSH and LSO boats that are of a better quality then the Aquacraft motor?

[Steven Vaccaro]

One thing to consider. If you allow a more powerful motor, its boundaries will also be pushed to failure. I know its not what you want to hear, but racers will always push their equipment as hard as they can. Failures are going to happen no matter what motor you pick.

BUT with the price of the Aqua Motor jumping to new heights. You may want to start looking around.

[rc_speed]

Steve,
Is it possible to buy the Proboat, lsh legal, 1800kv motor without the water jacket on it?

thanks.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Steve,
Is it possible to buy the Proboat, lsh legal, 1800kv motor without the water jacket on it?

thanks.

As far as I know, No. But can ask.

Mike P ran a ProBoat 1500kv motor in a Titan 33 at the Nats. All I could say is it was FAST. But he also had a few other tricks.

[D.Smock]

;)..........:wave:

[Jeepers]

One thing to consider. If you allow a more powerful motor, its boundaries will also be pushed to failure. I know its not what you want to hear, but racers will always push their equipment as hard as they can. Failures are going to happen no matter what motor you pick.

BUT with the price of the Aqua Motor jumping to new heights. You may want to start looking around.


Yeah racers push hard, but rcspeeds motors died before his boat got a few laps in some times he could not even start a race.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Yeah racers push hard, but rcspeeds motors died before his boat got a few laps in some times he could not even start a race.

Every once in a while you will get a dud. But for the most part failures seem to be after a bunch of heats. In my thinking, thats telling me that the windings are getting so hot that, little by little the wires are melting the insulation until they build enough resistance to fail. I could be wrong. But this is the same thing that happened with 700 motors.

[Jeepers]

Every once in a while you will get a dud. But for the most part failures seem to be after a bunch of heats. In my thinking, thats telling me that the windings are getting so hot that, little by little the wires are melting the insulation until they build enough resistance to fail. I could be wrong. But this is the same thing that happened with 700 motors.

True, but it in rc speeds case I don't think he ever finished a heat, he some times didn't even start a race the boat would work on the bench, but as soon as it hit the water the motor would start cogging or it would run a couple of laps and not finish and this went like this the whole season for him

[Steven Vaccaro]

Was it all season with the same motor having issues? Seems like an esc issue to me.

[Jeepers]

as far as I know he switched out both multiple times.

[rc_speed]

I had the same or similar issues with 4 differant motors.

I am using the same, or similar, prop as others in the club.

I had one motor that was brand new. I put it in the water. It got 1/4 lap before it "cr*pped" out.

In our last race, I got 7-1/4 laps, out of 8, and the motor went out.

[Teach]

I am using the same, or similar, prop as others in the club.



That may be Timbo but it doesn't mean crap. You can only use hot props if you are willing to run loose.

[Jeepers]

I ran a Prather 220 and 42x66

[rc_speed]

ok, here is the decision that I have made.

I will run the Proboat 1800kv motor. I will buy one and run it in my Insane. From what I can determine, I should be able to prop it to go as fast as we go. I know this will push this motor, also, but I am hoping that the proboat motor can handle the stress better. I know that they make a 1500kv motor also (Rod said both motors were legal to run in the lsh class). I had only seen the 1500kv motor, until the 1800kv motor was pointed out to me. I don't think that the 1500kv motor will be able to run the size of prop needed to match the speeds that we run at. However, the 1800kv will be able to go this fast.

If this motor runs like the UL-1 motor, then I will probably sell my boats and be done with boating. I want to run with the fast guys, but I can't afford to buy a new motor every race day. I went through 4 motors and 3 speed controllers last year. I drive quite a ways and it really isn't a fun day to drive that far and only get a few laps completed.

I run rc cars. I run in the ROAR spec class for buggys and short course trucks. Their rules are that you can run any motor that is 540 can size and 13.5T. It doesn't matter who makes the motor. It doesn't matter how the motor is wound. It doesn't even matter if the motor has adjustable timing or not. From what I have seen, all the cars run at about the same speeds down the straights and out of the corners. It comes down to driver ability to win. Now don't go arguing that cars are differant than boats. My point is that ROAR has a very broad set of rules for what motor can be run and yet the cars are still fairly even when it comes to horsepower. This is what I wanted for our club rules. But since that isn't going to happen, then I will try to fit within the rules that exist. I alway have the choice to quit and do something else.

[D.Smock]

:eek::shrug:

[Teach]

Timmyjoejimbob if I can crap out 500 bucks to buy a full P set up I'll give it a go with you. Sean expressed interest in at one point too. Actually better add another 500 bucks in batteries too.

[rc_speed]

When did I ever say "full P"?

I like spec racing where everybody is supposed to be close to the same. That way, I get beat by somebody that is a better driver, not somebody that has more horsepower in his boat.

[mbarbee]

Hi Tim,
Just a few thoughts. Many boats are running our "LSH" class with the Aquacraft UL-1 motor (the Gold colored one). It is 2030kv according to the manufacturer. This and the Aquacraft AQUG7000 - APX 1800kv (the blue colored one) are fine motors. Some run for more than one season. I personally feel the Proboat motor - A3630-1500 (slightly lower 1500 KV) is a bit more durable and with the lower KV you can prop it up a bit. When you go with higher KV motors the propping is more important - with the wrong prop and/or strut depth/angle you can easily overload a motor. This leads to a cascade of ESC and battery problems. Also it is very important to ensure you have a low friction drive train with good strut geometry and a good cooling system. Having a sound drive train, low resistance wiring and connections, and batteries suited to the heavy currents will give you better results.

Some suggestions:

Get a new untraumatized UL-1 motor - desolder those tiny 3.5mm connectors on it (do not cut them off) and replace them with 5.5mm bullets.

Get a solid 120A ESC with good cooling plates and large ID nipples. Use the recommended software settings - don't mess around with timing, frequencies, etc.

Buy some good quality 40c or better batteries from a manufacturer who takes the time to match cells well - I have been running the same Thunderpower packs for 3 years and they are just as fast as ever. You need to pair them up right from new - number them something like A1 and A2. ALWAYS use them together! Run them together (as a 4s pack), charge then together (as a 4s pack), sleep with them together! NEVER charge, discharge, or use them separately. Store them at 50% capacity for the off season and between races. I always charge the morning of the race not the night before to minimize the time they spend fully charged. They rarely need to be balanced if you treat them well.

Keep all your wiring as short as practical. Use 5.5mm minimum dia bullets on all connections.

Thoroughly check your drive system. Bad geometry is BAD - keep bends in the stuffing box to a minumum, bring the teflon/brass close to your collet so there is minimum drive line exposed, get your motor as perfectly aligned with the stuffing tube entrance as possible (the line should go perfectly straight into the collet not move a bit in any direction as it enters the collet), use only light oil on your driveline and prop shaft - grease is too much, the trick is to have a minimum friction setup. Load from anything other than the prop is wasted energy. I like to use a ball bearing thrust washer between the collet and the motor.

Props.. this is an art not so much science. Bigger is not always better and can trash your system. There are so many variables here. We have some real prop experts in the club - ask for their help. They will be happy to give you ideas..

Trim - balance your hull in the right place (find out what works from other drivers running your hull) Get your strut depth and angle such that the prop is not too loaded. Bad CG and/or strut setting can cause the boat to run wet, at the wrong trim angle overloading the prop and your system leading to the cascade of motor > ESC > battery failure.

mark b

[Teach]

Hi Tim,
I personally feel the Proboat motor - A3630-1500 (slightly lower 1500 KV) is a bit more durable and with the lower KV you can prop it up a bit. When you go with higher KV motors the propping is more important - with the wrong prop and/or strut depth/angle you can easily overload a motor.

mark b

No lie. I ran the BJ motor for 2 races and did just fine with speed. I went back to the UL1 motor because the big props created some weird habits.

When I first started I bought the BJ motor used from Rod, ran it for a season and a half, blew the bearings, replaced the bearings, sold it to Mike who won 10th Scale this year.....you could say they are more durable.

[Jeepers]

Timmyjoejimbob if I can crap out 500 bucks to buy a full P set up I'll give it a go with you. Sean expressed interest in at one point too. Actually better add another 500 bucks in batteries too.


Umm... Teach $1,000 not needed for a full P set up.

Esc's: Turnigy 180 $89.99, Seaking 180 $104.99 or swordfish 200 $99.99

Motors. Leopard 4074-2200kv $94.80, Leopard 4082-2200kv %108.80

batteries: since you guys like Turnigy. 2x 4s 3000mah 40c approx $40 each depends on were you get them shipped from. wire these in parallel for 6000mah to be a bit easier on batteries.

estimated cost (high) $293

and I just spent 5 minutes looking for this stuff with more research and time I bet you could save a few bucks.

In Arizona guys were using the Turnigy stuff in there P sport Hydros and they did fine.

Dave Newland ran an 8xl, though which brand not sure, Nemisis, Feiago or Hacker.

[Jeepers]

[QUOTE=rc_speed;289496

I like spec racing where everybody is supposed to be close to the same. That way, I get beat by somebody that is a better driver, not somebody that has more horsepower in his boat.[/QUOTE]


wow! Tim its not about how much horsepower is in the boat to be competitve even with a Full P Sport.

I went up against boats that were way faster than my P Sport in Arizona. (Dave Newland's, Properchoppers etc.), yet I still managed to ink out a 1st place in the class.

Reliability should be your #1 priority.

[Teach]

Eh in my opinion P power isn't a place to go cheap. While I do love the Turnigys for spec setups I wouldn't believe they would be suitable for P.

Other then the batteries this is middle of the line equipment.

1521 $250
200 Hydra ice $300
TP 6600 65c 4s $240x3 (that's just nuts).

If a person wanted to do P on a budget he could just use the UL1 motor and speedo.

Back on topic. I guess I misunderstood what Tim meant. Spec motors are cheap mass produced units. As hard as we push them they should have a pretty high failure rate. Not as high as Tim's, but I think a motor a year is reasonable.

[Jeepers]

Hi Tim,
Just a few thoughts. Many boats are running our "LSH" class with the Aquacraft UL-1 motor (the Gold colored one). It is 2030kv according to the manufacturer. This and the Aquacraft AQUG7000 - APX 1800kv (the blue colored one) are fine motors. Some run for more than one season. I personally feel the Proboat motor - A3630-1500 (slightly lower 1500 KV) is a bit more durable and with the lower KV you can prop it up a bit. When you go with higher KV motors the propping is more important - with the wrong prop and/or strut depth/angle you can easily overload a motor. This leads to a cascade of ESC and battery problems. Also it is very important to ensure you have a low friction drive train with good strut geometry and a good cooling system. Having a sound drive train, low resistance wiring and connections, and batteries suited to the heavy currents will give you better results.

Some suggestions:

Get a new untraumatized UL-1 motor - desolder those tiny 3.5mm connectors on it (do not cut them off) and replace them with 5.5mm bullets.

Get a solid 120A ESC with good cooling plates and large ID nipples. Use the recommended software settings - don't mess around with timing, frequencies, etc.

Buy some good quality 40c or better batteries from a manufacturer who takes the time to match cells well - I have been running the same Thunderpower packs for 3 years and they are just as fast as ever. You need to pair them up right from new - number them something like A1 and A2. ALWAYS use them together! Run them together (as a 4s pack), charge then together (as a 4s pack), sleep with them together! NEVER charge, discharge, or use them separately. Store them at 50% capacity for the off season and between races. I always charge the morning of the race not the night before to minimize the time they spend fully charged. They rarely need to be balanced if you treat them well.

Keep all your wiring as short as practical. Use 5.5mm minimum dia bullets on all connections.

Thoroughly check your drive system. Bad geometry is BAD - keep bends in the stuffing box to a minumum, bring the teflon/brass close to your collet so there is minimum drive line exposed, get your motor as perfectly aligned with the stuffing tube entrance as possible (the line should go perfectly straight into the collet not move a bit in any direction as it enters the collet), use only light oil on your driveline and prop shaft - grease is too much, the trick is to have a minimum friction setup. Load from anything other than the prop is wasted energy. I like to use a ball bearing thrust washer between the collet and the motor.

Props.. this is an art not so much science. Bigger is not always better and can trash your system. There are so many variables here. We have some real prop experts in the club - ask for their help. They will be happy to give you ideas..

Trim - balance your hull in the right place (find out what works from other drivers running your hull) Get your strut depth and angle such that the prop is not too loaded. Bad CG and/or strut setting can cause the boat to run wet, at the wrong trim angle overloading the prop and your system leading to the cascade of motor > ESC > battery failure.

mark b

Thanks for saying this Mark.

using suggestions from others running the same hull will get you in the ball park, but since no 2 identical boats are the same, you must tune for that boat.

I have seen this time and time again when our club has ran identical hulls in the past, using Nimh and 700 brushed motors.


Tim, just to show how critical set ups are, here are some interesting things I found in testing 3 of my hydros on UL1 motors.

27" custom Whiplash will not run any prop over a m442 this prop is pushing the limits with high temps. x440 is best. :confused:

30" Whiplash can run well on these props m442 m445 P220 P225 Grim 42x66. Modified 645, modified 646 and an H5.

Phil Thomas Super Sport 21, will run well with the same props as my 30" Whiplash with the the exception of an H5. a 447 will also work on this boat, but I can't grab the connectors to the batteries after a heat to damn hot, oddly the motor survives just fine.

[Teach]

I can't grab the connectors to the batteries after a heat to damn hot, oddly the motor survives just fine.

I run into the same thing with different props. Joe Scarpino started to solder direct and said it works great. May have to give that a shot.

[Jeepers]

Eh in my opinion P power isn't a place to go cheap. While I do love the Turnigys for spec setups I wouldn't believe they would be suitable for P.

Other then the batteries this is middle of the line equipment.

1521 $250
200 Hydra ice $300
TP 6600 65c 4s $240x3 (that's just nuts)..




by the way I am still interested in a full P set up in the club. :yeah:

[Jeepers]

I run into the same thing with different props. Joe Scarpino started to solder direct and said it works great. May have to give that a shot.

way ahead of you!!! I was to cheap to buy connectors this year so I just soldered the motor to the esc which is the best connections you can get!

[Teach]

way ahead of you!!! I was to cheap to buy connectors this year so I just soldered the motor to the esc which is the best connections you can get!

No issues?

[rc_speed]

Hello,
After having an email discussion with David Newland, here is what I have done and found:
1) I have 2 motors that stopped working. I opened them up and one of them seemed fine, although I did find a loose tiny ball of solder in it. The rotor and magnets showed many small scratches in them. This may be normal.
The other motor was burned at the end that has the wires. The rotor was burned on the wire end 1/2. The magnets were burned on that 1/2, also. The wires that wrap the magnets were also burned on that end.
I am going to send both motors back to aquacraft in the off chance that they are nice enough to replace them.
2) I have removed my driveline out of the boat. I am in the process of replacing the stuffing tube with one that is straighter. The old drive line seemed to spin free and smooth, but it can't hurt to start over with a new setup.
3) I have 2 UL-1 motors. one has "2030KV" engraved on the end, the other doesn't. David said that the one that is not engraved is from an older production run. this production run has had more motor failures in it. He also said that the engraved motors have a slightly higher kv, under testing (although this is only about 30kv). During testing, he found that they run a little less than the 2030 kv, around 1960kv. I am not sure which version the other 2 that I broke were because I have thrown them out.

David N. also said that his boats run at about 70 amps. I was running at about 90 when I tested. I don't know if this is where I was all year or not, though.

As I have stated before, I do not want to run a full open P class. I like spec racing where "theoretically" everybody is running similar hardware. With P-spec, we all mainly run at the same speeds. So, when you guys beat me, it is because you drive better.

[Jeepers]

No issues?

Nope not at all!