About motors...

[Mathieu]

Hi all,

I need your science...

I've some questions about motors :

- What sort of ESC should i use with a brushless one. Some standard ESC like a Jeti Navy or an RC-Hydros.com one ???

- And what for a brushless sensorless ???

- What worth Hopf Viper motors ?

Thanks.

See ya.

[GRacing]

It´s easy!

If you have a brushless,you still have 2 options!

-Brushless(with sensor)

or

-Brushless sensorless

Rc hydros don´t do,at this moment and i belive they never will do brushless controllers,only for brushed motors!
Altough Jeti as controllers for brushed and brushless systems!

If you have a brushless sensorless motor you will need an brushless sensorless controller(in example an hacker motor)

Ifyou have a brushless with sensor motor, you will need a brushless with sensor contoller(In example Aveox 1412/1.5Y)


Regard´s Gerardo Brandão;)

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by GRacing
It´s easy!

If you have a brushless,you still have 2 options!

-Brushless(with sensor)

or

-Brushless sensorless

Rc hydros don´t do,at this moment and i belive they never will do brushless controllers,only for brushed motors!
Altough Jeti as controllers for brushed and brushless systems!

If you have a brushless sensorless motor you will need an brushless sensorless controller(in example an hacker motor)

Ifyou have a brushless with sensor motor, you will need a brushless with sensor contoller(In example Aveox 1412/1.5Y)


Regard´s Gerardo Brandão;)

Actually, you can use a sensorless controller with a sensor motor, but you can't use a sensor controller with a sensorless motor.

Lets hope Andy rethinks his position on a sensorless controller, I would LOVE to have a sensorless controller that I could run in a glass of water!!! :bounce:

[KevinW]

One additional option, Gerardo.

You can run a brushless motor with a sensor, like an Aveox, with a brushless - sensorless controller. You simply leave the motor sensor unconnected.

Kevin W.

[Mathieu]

Thanks guys.

Basically, what are the pro and cons of a brushless motor ?

[rcrdps]

Brushless:
High startup cost,.... low cost afterward if properly cared for.
No loss to heat from brushes arcing.
No loss to friction from brushes.
Flatter power curve since controller can change timing for certain rpms.
Cooling coils have more of an effect since the coils are on the can of a brushless.
The main problem with brushless is that most of the controllers aren't waterproof. The top brushed controllers are. Any electronics flowing high amps will fry with just a tad of water. I prefer to ballon my ESC. Try to get the water cooled controllers, so that you can close them up without worrying about heat.

Gene

[Mathieu]

Thank you Sir. ;)

[Ray Bidwell]

How does this work Aveox motor and sensorless controller. With out the sensors does it mean you get fixed timing which is what I thought Aveox was anyway.

[Andrewg]

Ray

Ina sensored motors the sensors detect the position of the rotor - in a sensorless controller the controller "blips" the motor and analyses the feedback from the motor to detect the position of the motor i.e. the controller does the detection.

[AndyKunz]

Lets hope Andy rethinks his position on a sensorless controller, I would LOVE to have a sensorless controller that I could run in a glass of water!!! :bounce:

Maybe I'll explain it publicly so everybody understands why I plan to NOT do one.

When I got going on brushed controls there was NOTHING out there that could handle even the poor cells from 10 years ago and the cruddy motors. I worked with a friend who was making controls for airplanes to adapt one for boats. We spent a lot of time changing, tweaking, etc. to get something that we liked. It was the Lofty Pursuits LPSC-1.

He licensed the result to Astro, and it became the Astro 212D (and other D controls). He still does all Astro's programming for their chargers and everything.

I was not happy with the production Astro controls, and licensed the source code from him to make my own line. The SC1's were a lot of learning by me. I have one of them here still. The SC2's were the first I sold, and only made about 100 or so of them. The things I learned manufacturing and servicing the SC2 grew into the SC3, which pleases me quite well now. I spun an air-cooled version of it as well, the SC5. (The SC4 is an OEM product).

All that because I wasn't happy with the existing products and the only one who could do something about it (Astro) wasn't going to.

About the same time I was starting into the brushed controls for my boats, I was working on an industrial brushless control. The company (based in Red China) also wanted to get into the model market. Their motor was similar to the Aveox's of the day, but used a 4mm shaft. Mistake number one that doomed them for that market. I guess they are doing OK in the industrial stuff though.

I set aside the model brushless work due to other more pressing needs, like feeding my growing family. A couple times I ran my boats with brushless motors, but I used Flightec controls. I blew one of them up over-amping it (10 cells in an MRP Bud). I still have a couple here in my motor box.

The brushless control sat on the shelf for years. When I started to look around at doing brushless controls again, the sensorless theory was just being published by TI and other companies. Their approach was to make it completely dynamic tuning, requiring a hefty CPU. Careful analysis showed that their approach was unnecessary when one is dealing with only a handful of motors - you can use tabular data to control the motor almost as perfectly as a fully-dynamic setup. I assume this is what Shulze and others are doing.

The airplane competition in Europe is fiercely driving the capabilities of the controls up and the price down. This means I would get little benefit if I were to enter the fray. Also, the controls are doing everything I would want and then some - I have no new feature to add. I have been very open with my waterproofing and am a little surprised that they haven't adopted something better than what they have, but they know their market much better than I do.

So it boils down to one little thing - water proofing - that needs to be added to the brushless control features to make them "perfect."

Do you really think it is worth it to try to develop a control on the order of a Shulze just so that it is water proof? I am trying to SELL this business, not dig myself into more and more products. I expect to release only 2 new products this year, and both are something you will all like.

So in summary: I do not plan for there to be an RC-Hydros.com brushless control while I own the business. If somebody wants to buy me out and have me (or somebody else) develop a waterproof contro, that will be their decision.

The unsatisfied features are too few and too easy for others to adopt to justify the significant time and money investment to make it worthwhile for me to enter the fray.

Does that make it clearer or murkier?

Andy

[Dan Chase]

Thanks for the explanation, Andy. That was an interesting read. I totally understand your reasons for not making a sensorless controller, I just wish Shulze would adopt your water proofing method.

As a testimonial to the water proofing & durability of the SC3, last Saturday at our meet. I noticed my boat slowed way down on the other side of the pond. As I was nursing it back to shore I noticed it was riding real low in the water. When I picked it up, a section of the rear sponson had separated at the turn fin. I had probably hit a green pine cone that plagues Heather Farms pond. The hull was completely filled with water. Fortunately, the receiver was tightly wrapped in a balloon. The servo didn't fair so well.

In short, the SC3 brought my boat back completely submerged in water!

It's for that reason I would love to see a RC-Hydros sensorless controller. Maybe you could at least put a bug in Heir Shulze's ear! :hail:

[popop]

As "RCRDPS" Gene said, BL motors themselves only brings good news ... The main 3 keys are :
- No-friction
- Improved heat dissipation
- Reduced weight (for a given Power)

True that in the R/C world, the BL control still can make smile ... compared to industrial segments where the BL control is absolutely mastered and the RPM precise control far more placed ahead in the advantages ...

Note that for example Alstom electrical merchandise locomotives use a ESC with 98+% efficiency (less can be no-way at this level of power) and only a attache case size (due essentially to the water cooling system) ...

Just hoping this year will bring us more cost-effective BL ESCs (due to the Car segment penetration) and ... sealed ones ...

See complete worldwide BL offer on R/C Saga links ...

[Mathieu]

Brushless are still too expensive for my budget... :(

But I still want a good motor. I'm looking to the MEGA and the ASTRO FLIGHT ones.
I want one for 12 cells so the MEGA Midi 4 700 size seems good as well as the Astro Flight Cobalt 25 or 40.
What's the difference between the 25 and 40 Cobalt, torque ?
I certainly use this one for racing (french hydro 12 cells class) an some time for fun (on my Systems or even other).

What do you think about that ???

Thanks.

[Mathieu]

Also what is the more reliable.

Thanks again.

[walter geens]

Hi Mathieu,

Brushless motors too expensive for your budget? You say you want to enter in French Hydro 2 racing, take a look at the price of a DECENT brushed motor controller and motor, and compare this to a brushless set-up like many guys on this magnificent site offer. You will find that brushless combo's are not that expensive at all. In Hydro 2 i use a Viper 600/11 (Yes indeed from KH Hopf) and a Schulze W0 88 controller. I am sorry, but in 4 minute RACING (even with the new change to 5 minutes), it is abit as Karl Heinz often tells people,in not using a brushless motor and the newest batteries, you become the 7th bouy on the track. Add to this the fact that brushless motors have little to no maintenance at all, i would not go back to brushed motors in Hydro 2 racing. I know this sounds kind of hard, but racing is expensive, and being constantly beaten because of using "outdated" technology is also hard to swallow. Don't get me wrong, i also use brushed motors, from Graupner 700 to brushed Lehner's, Ultra's and even 3 Astro- Flight's, but these i only use in my sportsboats. All my racing boats, from micro to Hydro 1 & Hydro 2 all have brushless motors in them.
Sorry for sounding abit hard, no offence meant to anyone!!
Ciao Walter

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

I personally don't agree with Walter on the cost issue. I run the Mega Midi 4 (I have 2 of them) and if you pick one up for 145.00 plus one of RC-Hydros ESC's your at roughly 245.00 total cost. LESS than the price of a good BL controller. A years worth of hard racing on my Megas reveal no significant wear.

Sorry guys, the BL price comparison stuff doesn't wash with me.

Paul.

[walter geens]

Paul,
How about this Hacker B50L11, 209 Euro+119 Euro for a Master Jeti 40-3P OPTO controller. Total 338 Euro and you get an 11% discount if you buy motor + controller from Hacker, so this makes roughly 300 Euro or 261,87 US dollars. And this lasts forever with NO maintenance.
These prices are no special prizes, but normal prices to be found on the Hacker site! You might even find some people selling them even cheaper.
Ciao Walter

[ccboatworks]

Originally posted by Mathieu
Brushless are still too expensive for my budget... :(

But I still want a good motor. I'm looking to the MEGA and the ASTRO FLIGHT ones.
I want one for 12 cells so the MEGA Midi 4 700 size seems good as well as the Astro Flight Cobalt 25 or 40.
What's the difference between the 25 and 40 Cobalt, torque ?
I certainly use this one for racing (french hydro 12 cells class) an some time for fun (on my Systems or even other).

What do you think about that ???

Thanks.


If you're going to spend $150 on motor like a Mega or Astro you may as well save a few extra dollars up and go brushless. The difference in price from a high end brushed and say a Hacker is not that much. When you figure in the cost of replacement brushes and changing armetures (that you don't have to deal w/ in a brushless)you better to go with brushless.

I just got a Hacker from fine design for $195. Chris offers a lifetime warrenty with his Hacker motors soooo......


Just my 2c

Chris

[Mathieu]

Well guys,

I just have to think about what you said...

Thanks.

[popop]

Perhaps Mr Noro could propose you a good deal ... Its BLs do not address massively the Boat segment yet now ... And it could help him to be known ...
And Electronicmodel BLs are among the top 3 best value worldwide offers (Claude BALADA can confirm)... The other european F5D and F3B racers currently verify what I say so ... Why to not contact him ?
...
If you only want to "test" the BL tech you can afford a first-handed BL on ebay.de from somebody who knew how to use it (not killed it as a typical :bounce: would do) ...

Important to notice than these BLs are constantly themselves outdated ... simply 'cause we talk about Racing stuff ... And F5D racing proves that "stock" motors don't reach the first places ... Perhaps, it will be the same on the E-boat scene ...

Last year I remember someone saying that the good new on the MonoIII category was with a Ultra 1300M power is largely enough so ... don't need new more expensive tech ...
Class III also could be a not so expensive way ... Who knows ?

For example, on-road 1/5 car racing is far less expensive a year than 1/8 ... Less wear, less crash, simple solutions ...

[Mathieu]

I've to ask to the french federation if those BL motors are allowed. Because the rules of Hydro 2 are being updated I've to ask.

Who's Mr Noro ???

[walter geens]

Hi Mathieu,
no worries, all B/L motors are allowed. The rule change will probably be the same as all the other European federations face. The fact that from this year on Navige inposes 5 minute racetime for Hydro classes and 6 minutes for Mono. Since electric boats use batteries, it all come's down to converting available power the most efficient way possible. Since B/L motors have a higher efficiency then brushed motors+ that appart from the typical 05 carnotors, no serious development is being done on brushed motors, i would find it hard to believe that in 5 MINUTE ( excuse me for stressing this guys!!!!) racing a brushed set-up will keep up with the far more develloped B/L technology.
Ciao Walter

[Andrewg]

hi guys

inexpensive brushless? be patient a little longer - I have to be - I wish that shipment would arrive!

BTW our Hacker's are extrememly competitive and are now at home market levels.

BTW if you want a less expensicve setup for 5 minute racing why not race Mono 1 - Walter how do car motors like the Corally do in that class?

[popop]

Mr NORO is the maker and seller of its french BLs : See his company "Electronicmodel" on R/C Saga links ... Just call him ...

... Easy, it's the sole french company !
.. Not to be bad with our friends but still 50% more companies are German! in the B/L segment ... (i.e. Strong Industrial machinery know how and typical big electric R/C way of mind)
...
;)

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

i would find it hard to believe that in 5 MINUTE ( excuse me for stressing this guys!!!!) racing a brushed set-up will keep up with the far more develloped B/L technology.

In a word, gearbox.

I've been using all the methods available to push my boats, I've got Megas, 700's, a ton of 05 motors and a Hacker/Shultze combo. I'm sticking with the brushed/gearbox combos now. They are extremely versatile and parts/service is much more readily available, particularly in the United States. Dollar for dollar the brushed setups make more sense to me, try outfitting 5 or 6 boats with a BL setup.

I read all the hype about the BL stuff and the typical FE boater doesn't need to spend that kind of coin to be competitive with one boat. BL motors are a risk and when you hurt one your out of the race. Take a look at the thread about Hacker motor specs and see what the guys running the BL are saying.

It really makes me laugh that the same guys that preach the cost effectiveness and performance of a BL system also tell you to have a bucket full of cash when something goes wrong, and it will go wrong, been there done that.


http://www.skullcaps.com/boats/blmotor.jpg


When the time comes that a BL setup is as cost effective as a brushed system I'll switch, until that time comes brushed motors are the way to go.

Paul.

BL systems are not cheap by any stretch of the imagination but they are versatile and fairly maintanence free. Brushed motors and gear boxes are not maintanence free and are a big learning curve for a newbie. To have an idea of what wind motor to use, what gear ratio and what prop to use on a particular setup can be quite difficult for a person to figure out. The cost for brushed motors are ongoing. They HAVE to have some kind of regular maintanence or their efficiency and performance slowly go away.
Oh ya if you are really serious about trying to make brushed motors and gearboxes competitive you will need to buy a motor lathe and possibly a dyno.

Now with all that said and done let's put some of the proof that's in the pudding out on the table. Brushed motors and gearboxes don't win in 8 cell and above classes at the big national events. They do not show up in the winners circles or the record books oval or straightlines at least they haven't for the past 3 or 4 years. That's just a fact they can not compete for the top positions at the large events. At least I have not seen them winning at these events I attend and I do attend quite a few. Fact is if you want to win and set records BL systems can not be beat. That's going strictly by the record book. If you are looking for something else out of the hobby such as a little more work, a little less performance and a little less cost than brushed motors and gearboxes maybe for you. I know that on any given day a boat with a gear drive may beat one with a BL system but day in and day out consistant winning will come from the BL system.

Really though we all look for different things from the hobby some people want to tinker and put more of their time and energy into their projects while others like to go out and run hard and fast and be very competitive with as little effort as possible. This whole brushed and brushless thing has been hashed over many times on this board. Personal preference and what you are looking to get out of the hobby will drive your decisions on what system you want to run. The cost will be one of the least concerns in all reality. A person who decides he wants to race on a national level and be competitive will spend the money necessary do so and never look back when doing so. It's part of the racing game like the old saying goes " Speed costs money now how fast do you want to go." Oh by the way in case you couldn't tell I'm one of those guys who doesn't use brushed motors and gearboxes and I'm not looking back either. My personal preference.

[Mathieu]

Well I've to say I was not thinking it was so hot to choose between brushed and brushless...

There is clearly 2 differents ways to go. What's the best ? I don't know. But it's very interesting.

Feel free to reply and give me your opinion.

Thanks to all.

[popop]

Impressive picture Paul !

... Seriously, the shaft is far too small compared to the TorquexRpm ... Seems also the join didn't work straight ... A flex drive can cause such failure on every too torquy X too RPM motor (not the case of current brushed design / There optimization is stopped from some years)

Concerning the gearing, YES convincing results can be achieved on Boats or Airplanes with finely tuned combos (winding, cells, ratio, prop) ...

Just note that some top end F5D racers now use geared B/L as well ... They fly at +250km/h (+155mph) but a bigger prop / lower output RPM proved to be faster !

So keep in mind the potential of a so finely tuned geared B/L on a Boat ... And reasons are it quickly come ...

P.S.
I'm not a B/L addicted : I stop my invests on brushed techno cause it's far enough for my OWN needs ...
If I were on the point to race seriously (not spend efforts for zero), I'd start from an equal point from the others and probably would be forced to consider B/L power ...

Just enjoy what you do !!

[ccboatworks]

Well put Larry. :thumup:


Thanks,

Chris
CCBoatworks

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

Fact is if you want to win and set records BL systems can not be beat. That's going strictly by the record book.

Larry, how many different people are holding those records over the last few years?

I can only think of a handful of guys that can #1 afford those speeds and #2 are capable of harnessing a BL systems power correctly. And last time I checked the IMPBA records BL's weren't the ruling setup.

There's more to it than records or national level competition, service was a big point in my thoughts. Blow a BL motor or controller and your out for a while when you have to ship overseas for repairs. And who pays for the repairs when you didn't use "approved" connectors or follow the manufacturers guidelines to the T.

To have an idea of what wind motor to use, what gear ratio and what prop to use on a particular setup can be quite difficult for a person to figure out.

No more so than with a BL setup, fact is the knowledge base for brushed setups far exceeds BL's.

It's really nice of you Larry helping out the new guys with your statements in the last 2 paragraphs of your post. Yep, if you guys bought brushed motors and gearboxes to run in your boats be prepared to get your fannies kicked when the BL guys come to your race, cause your stuff is junk and those who use them obviously have there heads up their rear ends.

ROCK ON BL SYSTEMS!!! :rockon:

Paul.:moon:

[Dick Crowe]

Originally posted by Mathieu
Well I've to say I was not thinking it was so hot to choose between brushed and brushless...

There is clearly 2 differents ways to go. What's the best ? I don't know. But it's very interesting.

Feel free to reply and give me your opinion.

Thanks to all.

Mathieu,
Here's how I look at it.

You're getting opinions form 2 different sides. Racers and sport drivers.

I'll put myself in the racer catagory as is Larry. Not that it should be a 2 sided issue. BUT, Neither of us do much "Sport Running" and therefor won't be the best people to get advise from if that's your aim.

If you want to know what setup will be most competitve we will both give you our opinion of what that is.

It would also be of my opinion that Pauls advise would fall into what I would describe the "Sport" catagory. I can only base this by my own observations at the races, although I've never raced Paul so I may be wrong. So far, racers with the combinations he has described have been behind me at the finish line. I have a feeling though that Paul would like to change that. AND, if it happens, I'll be back to praising the glory of the brushed motor.

I like what Paul is doing. It's fun to see what other options are capable of. Perhaps he'll have more success with gears than I did. To be honest, I never got the knack for gears so I never saw their full potential in my boats.

Like I said. This shouldn't be a 2 sided issue. There are many options out there and many people running those different options, which means........lots of opinions!

I hope people don't get offended by my simple illustration. There are always exceptions to the rules. Dennis Whit and Chris Fine remind me of that everytime I hook up with their gear drive monstors.

Oh ya, I liked Paul's pic. It reminded me of a few brushed goodies I had that I hadn't thrown out yet. I have about 50 more 05 arms and a worn out com lathe that I could have included but I think that's enough for now.

http://www.drcwebservices.com/boat_stuff/brushedjunk.jpg

See ya,
Dick

[K.R.Joye]

Please forgive me for butting in

PAUL and LARRY ,

Man you guys need to get a room and settle this.We don't want to discourage the NEWBEE's!!!!!!!!!!! How about settling this at THE MICHIGAN CUP like gentlemen. I don't care how fast your boat is,if it can't hold its speed in traffic around our EXTREMELY TIGHT COURSE you ain't going to win. Don't worry the course is surrounded by plenty of nice sandy shoreline to collect your lightning fast boats. Cuts down on fetch boat runs. :D

[Dick Crowe]

Hey Ken, There's a race out west here called the NAMBA Nationals. No beach, but a pretty good site none the less.

If anyone can go faster then me with a brushed setup in 8 or 12 cell hydro I'll jump in the lake! That's got to be worth something?

See ya,
Dick

[Mathieu]

Men,

The new rules of the the french Hydro II are now on-line...

Just taked a look at the motor restrictions, it's clear : NONE...

We'll I think I'll have to go with BL.

They seems to be like the NAVIGA ones but there is "only" 4 minutes in each run...
Quite enougth.

Thanks to all again.

[Ray Bidwell]

Dick I think that if anybody goes faster than you with any setup you should jump in the lake. :D

[Mathieu]

Men,

Remenber the first time you came into racing...
Did you used "state of the art" stuff ???

Because this will be my first season in Hydro II class.

BTW, I've understood the fact I (we) must use BL systems to be competitive.

[Ray Fuller]

If Dick and Larry had much problems with there lighting fast boats
how do you exlain the 58 second 5 laps in 8 cell hydro and the 49 second 5 laps in in in Q hydro they must have not hit the beach. And check out the last 5 years in major event these guys sure are lucky or maybe they just know what they are doing.

In a 5 lap race 1 min is 30 mph have you ever done it. Ray

There are 12 different people holding NAMBA records with brushless motors. As far as IMPBA explain to me how many electric events they hold each year and who normally attends these events. There is just very little IMPBA participation or events to make this a viable arguement Paul.

In the 5 plus years I have run brushless motors I have never had a motor failure. I can't say the same thing about my brushed motors I have used not even close.



Quote:
It's really nice of you Larry helping out the new guys with your statements in the last 2 paragraphs of your post. Yep, if you guys bought brushed motors and gearboxes to run in your boats be prepared to get your fannies kicked when the BL guys come to your race, cause your stuff is junk and those who use them obviously have there heads up their rear ends.



As far as this statement goes I was talking about racing not patty cake with your best friend. Maybe we should tell Bernie Little he needs to go to piston power so he doesn't beat the competition too bad or tell Jeff Gordon to back off and so on. I was speaking about top level racing and what the facts are for being competitive. If one chooses to go into racing on a national level no sense of sugar coating anything for them. I didn't say their equipment was junk just that it would be very hard to reach the winners circle with it at a national race. Again just a fact. Many don't like it but time marches on and new and better things keep coming. Some of us just choose to use it and it's okay if you choose not to but why beat us up because we are trying to achieve the most we can out of our boats.

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

You know Mathieu posed the question about the Mega Midi and I gave him an answer. I also made the comment about the BL system being costly compared to the Mega and a good esc like one of Andy's, true right?

Larry, do me a favor and read my posts, just don't "think" you've read them.

As far as NAMBA's races and records my point still stands, it's always the same clique of guys and more often than not the average FE boater will never have to worry about crossing paths with them. So to say that if you don't run a BL system you won't be competitive is simply wrong.

explain to me how many electric events they hold each year and who normally attends these events.

I know of 2 SAW events held by IMPBA that electrics were run at, Yorkville and Huntsville. As to who was there I can't say, for sure Ed Hughey, I can't say for Namba either but I could make a good guess.

Paul

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

Dick,

It would also be of my opinion that Pauls advise would fall into what I would describe the "Sport" catagory.

You hurt my feelings with that jab. ;-)

lol, Paul.

[Paul]

Hello Ray,

"If Dick and Larry had much problems with there lighting fast boats
how do you exlain the 58 second 5 laps in 8 cell hydro and the 49 second 5 laps in in in Q hydro they must have not hit the beach. And check out the last 5 years in major event these guys sure are lucky or maybe they just know what they are doing.

In a 5 lap race 1 min is 30 mph have you ever done it. Ray"

What are you talking about? What's the point?

Paul.

[Paul]

Hello Ken,

How about settling this at THE MICHIGAN CUP like gentlemen. I don't care how fast your boat is,if it can't hold its speed in traffic around our EXTREMELY TIGHT COURSE you ain't going to win.

I'm there bud, I gave up 700.00 worth of tickets to the NHRA nationals to attend. I'm particularly looking forward to unlimited offshore. Yep, it will be me and my slow sport boats. Just remember I'm not the best driver. :hammer:

How many left coast guys are coming?

Paul.

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Paul
I'm there bud, I gave up 700.00 worth of tickets to the NHRA nationals to attend.

We would have come beat you if you hadn't - you left us for the Rt 66 deal last year, and we weren't about to let you off the hook again. ;)

I'm particularly looking forward to unlimited offshore. Yep, it will be me and my slow sport boats. Just remember I'm not the best driver. :hammer:
[/B]

Hey, is that :hammer: the new robot you're working on? Give Jeff V a boom or two, right?

I can see it now:

Paul "I'm not the best driver" Pachmayer vs. Dennis "You cut me off" Whitt duking it out for Unlimited Offshore! This I gotta see!

Bring it on! This will be so good Stevie Wonder will want a front-row seat!

Andy

[Paul]

Hello Andy,

Paul "I'm not the best driver" Pachmayer vs. Dennis "You cut me off" Whitt duking it out for Unlimited Offshore! This I gotta see!

Bring the video cameras, we're talking some BIG I mean REALLY BIG boats ala German style. Just a hint, mines got 48 cells under the hood. I'm hoping that bullet proof controller your working on is my ace in the hole to control this beast.:thumup:

Paul.

I am going to try to explain this one last time. Your post that I responded to Paul talked about your belief that a brushed motor and gearbox was your preference over a BL system. Your opinion well and good.

My response was about BL systems and why I believed they are better than gearboxes and brushed motors. My opinion I hope well and good. In that post I made reference to being competitive at national races. Note my references were always to being competitive on a national level. You are right many guys will never have to worry about hooking up with the likes of our little clique because they will not or have no desire to attend such events. Again well and good different strokes for different folks.

You took this personal and I'm sorry you did. You gave your opinion and preferance and all I was doing was giving my opinion and preference. I also gave some examples of why I believed the BL system was better ie: records and wins at these national events. Just facts. There are many different opinions, likes and dislikes. That keeps it interesting. You obviously are into this alot different than me and that's cool. But when you post your ideas and beliefs don't be surprised, angry or even resentful when someone else post their ideas or beliefs and they are different from yours. I was just trying to show my view to your opinion maybe good for some maybe not but my views. My beliefs and views may not be yours but I have been around this hobby for awhile. I have been fortunate enough to have some success. This doesn't make me an expert just somewhat knowledgable on the subject. My hopes are to be able to share anything that I have done or am doing that may help someone else achieve some of their goals and desires. It may not be right for everyone but it has worked and is working for me.

Hope this clears up some of the misunderstanding Paul!!!

[K.R.Joye]

Originally posted by Paul
Hello Ken,

I'm there bud, I gave up 700.00 worth of tickets to the NHRA nationals to attend. I'm particularly looking forward to unlimited offshore. Yep, it will be me and my slow sport boats. Just remember I'm not the best driver. :hammer:

How many left coast guys are coming?

Paul.


PAUL and Interested Racers,

I'll have a few sport boats their myself that occasionally place at National Events along with the other Michigan racers who are very familiar with the SHARP PARK course.I know the East Coast will be represented with the KUNZ clan and the FINE DESIGN Arsenal just to mention a couple You will see them represented in almost every class.Were really hoping to get some of the west coast guys, I know RANDY N.is trying to make it, Dennis may know of more. Don't forget those spec class masters from Minnesota and those crafty CAFE guys from Ohio.They will always be a concern!The Toronto area REESORS should also be there with thier scratch built rockets. Those guys pick racers off like hawks.I'm sure will have some of the top racers from Florida,Illinois and Kentucky terrorizing the course also. The Florida racers will already have a race under their belts for 02.

Its going to be a heck of a racing weekend!

`THE MICHIGAN CUP' May 31-June 2, plan on attending what promises to be the biggest NAMBA FE race of the season.:cool:

[popop]

http://rcsaga.com/rrr.jpg

[AndyKunz]

`THE MICHIGAN CUP' May 31-June 2, plan on attending what promises to be the biggest NAMBA FE race of the season.:cool:

Well, I won't go along with "biggest" but certainly "one of the biggest" and for me one of the most fun because of all who will be along with me.

Andy

[Dick Crowe]

Originally posted by K.R.Joye



.......Its going to be a heck of a racing weekend!

`THE MICHIGAN CUP' May 31-June 2, plan on attending what promises to be the biggest NAMBA FE race of the season.:cool:

Ken. I wish I could be there. I all but promised Dennis I would at the SAW's. Since Nats is out here I thought I'd be able to swing it. Not this time. Keep holding that race though. You will see my face out there some day!

I did notice your little comment about being the biggest NAMBA FE race of the season. Are you reffering to the size of the boats or numbers of them? How about a little wager? If you get more boats then we do I'll jump in the lake out here. If we get more then you guys then you jump in the lake out there (just make sure you've got Brian Vega as a lifeguard and not Andy Kunz). Might be a good way to promote both events. I mean this with only good intentions!!!!!

See ya,
Dick

[Paul]

Hello Popop,

ROFLMAO!!!!! Pretty funny, I can appreciate the effort. :D

Paul.

Man, that little motor cartoon makes me laugh everytime I look at, must just be my sick sence of humor.

[Paul]

Hey Dick,

Sounds like your just itching to do some swimming.:bounce:

Paul.

[Dick Crowe]

Hey Paul,
If Ken backs out maybe you'd like to take his place?

Too much fun!
See ya,
Dick

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Dick Crowe
Are you reffering to the size of the boats or numbers of them?

Probably the size of the boaters!!!

Andy

[K.R.Joye]

Dick were talking total racers not boats. ( Yes Andy we do have some good size racers)Speaking of Dennis ,(MMEU President) shouldn't he have to jump in I'm just a lowly secretary.

[T.S.Davis]

Hey guys,

Wipped out my rcbm to look at the Namba nationals story again. I made these observations:

Out of 60 potential place finishes(20classes x 1st,2nd,3rd), brushless motors took 40% of those places. Of those 20 classes brushless motors took 1st 60% of the time. I found this incouraging. I also noticed that 98% of the 60 places were taken by 8 people.

I have no point. Just found it interesting.

Terry

[Dick Crowe]

Hi Ken,
Total racers!!!!! Ahh man. Alright, but remember, I've got a butt load of boats and lots of friends and relatives!!!!!

Terry,
Nice research. But remember, there's a ton of classes you can't run a brushless motor in. AND, The Hacker revolution was just at it's beginning last year.

As for the number of drivers in the first place spot, I'll have to work on that. I'll try and cut it down to 2 drivers (I don't race in the same classes as my 5 year old)!!!!!

See ya,
Dick

Wait a second Dick I would like a slice of the pie too. Ooops pie isn't on my diet make that a carrot stick. By the way attendance was lower than normal last year at the nats. Part of the reason you might see the same 8 guys in the winners circle. I believe we only had 12 or 13 drivers total.

[T.S.Davis]

I kind of figured attendance was low. Pricey trip I'm sure. The article said 121 entrants. I knew this must be 121 boats and not 121 people.

Just as long as those same 8 folks don't show up at every race I've got a shot right!? LOL.

[KevinW]

Popop, that is a most excellent post!

If they could be animated and have boxing gloves on, it would be perfect.

Ken, I can see the Michigan Cup turnout being boosted by advertising it as:

"THE RACE to be at if you want to make the Crowe swim!".

Maybe a little amination on the MMEU website with Heckle or Jeckle being dunked in a lake.

(Before anyone mentions it. Yes, I know Heckle & Jeckle were magpies. But, they look close enough for crows.)

Dick and Ken, would video evidence of the jump, displayed on a website for the whole world to see, be required?

Kevin W.

[AndyKunz]

Out of 60 potential place finishes(20classes x 1st,2nd,3rd), brushless motors took 40% of those places. Of those 20 classes brushless motors took 1st 60% of the time. I found this incouraging. I also noticed that 98% of the 60 places were taken by 8 people.


Terry,

Brushless motors are illegal in M2 (mono, hydro) and N1 (mono, hydro), and Crackerbox. That would take you down to 15 classes.

Did you figure those 5 classes in? It would change your stats a bit.

Andy

[T.S.Davis]

Andy,

No. I didn't figure that in. The argument seems to always be that you just can't compete if you don't have brushless systems. While your not likely to win Q hydro (for example) with a brushed motor you still can "compete". I'm more surprised by about the apparent domination of the sport by a couple of dozen people. I suppose that holds true of all sports/hobbies. That is more discouraging to a newby than the brush debate. There just aren't enough guys around here (S.E.Michigan)to have an organized race even once a month. So if I want to race I have to run at the M.Cup or Batavia against guys that have been racing for years.

I'm going to have a little cheese with that wine.

I guess I have to start somewhere.

Terry you are right on the money unfortunately. There just is not the numbers of guys who travel to these races like there used to be. There is alway a good group of local racers at these events but the numbers of racers that travel to the races have slowly declined. Traveling is very expensive and I believe that is some of the reason why. Most of the people who have entered the hobby lately have seemed to be more of the hobbyist rather than the hard core racer. Money is the driving factor here. All of these things are okay it's like any other type of racing when a person has to spend big dollars to compete or travel the numbers doing so will go down. The only exception would be if one could get a sponsorship that would pay for travel expenses. Not likely. The only thing I can say is we keep holding good quality events at a few locations each year. The local racers support them as much as possible and those who travel will come when ever possible.

[AndyKunz]

I agree with Larry, but need to add one more item.

A lot of the guys who traveled are having families now, and that does tie folks down some. It takes money and time away from the toys.

The goal now needs to be getting together a "new generation" of younger guys to take their places.

All the hobbies I'm into have this same thing. There is always a need for new blood.

In order to get them involved at that level, it will take motivation. And money.

And with the economy down, this probably won't be the year that happens.

Andy

[Jeff Wohlt]

I just think it is like any sport. You have the few that have the big sponsors and they win...look at boating, drag racing, stock cars, etc.

But you know what...there are always plenty of future leaders behind the leaders. Heck, if they all thought this way then it would only be the front five racing. Hell...it is called competition...lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. But don't get discouraged that you never have a chance.

If we can get new boaters interested and to this board and not have them watch pissing matches half the time then I feel all of us can do our part to intrique and interest these folks to be as addicted as the rest of us are.

I guess my point is YES, I agree their are the same names on top and conitue to win...but their winning and burning up expensive equipment does nothing but makes me a smarter buyer and faster boater.

They say it is hell to be on top. The top names know it that their time is now. Congrats to those guys...they know that they can't stay on top forever. Look back a few years and see what names were setting records and time records...they are not the same.

[Mathieu]

Well guys I need again your opinion.

I'm wondering what's the best between a BL with high RPM and less torque or a BL with less RPM but a bit more torque.

I'm looking to those two BL (sorry it's in french :D ) :

http://www.electronicmodel.com/brushless/chronos20.htm

http://www.electronicmodel.com/brushless/chronos25.htm

What do you think about that ??

Thanks

[Paul]

Hello guys,

If we can get new boaters interested and to this board and not have them watch pissing matches half the time

OUCH!! Man, I've been spanked more times this week than I did when I was a kid! Fortunately, being 39 years old, I now learn my lessons much quicker. ;-)

Paul.

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Paul
Hello guys,
OUCH!! Man, I've been spanked more times this week than I did when I was a kid! Fortunately, being 39 years old, I now learn my lessons much quicker. ;-)

WOW - and I thought I was dense ;)

Check your skullcaps mail, Paul.

Andy

[Jeff Wohlt]

Nothing in my post is directed to anyone. I actually think some of it is good to discuss.

Paul...39! Me too. arrrrg 40 in May!

My only point is that the leaders only lead for so long...and most of these guys will tell you exactly what they are running! They are not too worried because they all know it is about driving and good equipment...just like all other sports, racing, etc.

I mentioned that most that have big sponsors always win but I was actually trying to say this does not make them winners...they work very hard at it and work and drive and drive...this is what our front leaders do in this hobby. I think they have contributed plenty to this board and sharing their secrets...not sure I would be so reveiling if it were me...I like to stay on top when I can!

I am not standing up for anyone but I also think these folks are setting the standards by which we will all be utilizing sooner or later..hell yes I wanna go as fast as Larson, Crowe, Turner but right now it is not my turn. Not that I could not beat one of them at some point :) but consistancy is everything...which I don't have ...yet!

It is not about a free Fuller hardware set or a set of free cells...that is too cheap to hold anyone back...it is about dedication to the speed and driving experience in 5 lanes of traffic.

You all don't want me to race...I would be another Dennis Whitt..aka (Mr T-Bone) Hope I don't get my butt kicked for that one!

I need to bend over and take my licks right along side you Paul.:moon: As they say it takes two!!!

[AndyKunz]

I mentioned that most that have big sponsors always win but I was actually trying to say this does not make them winners...they work very hard at it and work and drive and drive...

Don't get the cart before the horse. They have sponsors BECAUSE they work and drive hard. They paid their dues, now they get to raise the ante for the rest of us.

Andy

Jeff, you are right on here and thanks for the kind words. Really the success I have had is only because of the unselfishness of the others before me. Guys like Jeff V, Dick C, Greg S, Dave F, and many many others. The opened up with any and all information and help I ever needed. Sure a guy is not going to be on top all the time and it is really neat to see someone new in the winners circle. The winning is good but you can ask any of us that do some traveling it's really all about getting together with everyone else for a couple of days cutting up shooting the BS and letting the chips fall where they may. Win or lose I always walk away from an event thrilled I saw these people again and just happy I spent a few days with them.

I'm going to share a story that happened at the LA NAMBA Nationals a few years ago that is forever etched in my memory and is probably the biggest reason I want to spend as much time as I do with these guys. Dick Crowe was the long running National Champion in 1/16 scale and Crackerbox for many years. When it came to these classes it was almost automatic that Dick won. He was involved in what I considered a very contraversary call in which he was disqualified during one of the heats there by eliminating any chance of winning the national championship. At that time I didn't know Dick real well but had talked to him on occasions. After the trophies were awarded I went to Dick to tell him how I thought the call was wrong and he didn't deserve the DQ. Dick's response to me was not one of bitterness but instead he proceeded to explain how he was so thrilled for the guy who won because he had never been in that winning position before. This is what the people are like who win at these races and I'm quite sure Jeff that when your time comes and it will you shall receive the same.

[Jeff Wohlt]

Heck, Larry...the BS and event fun is what it is all about...a trophy is just that...as I said in the past...the friendships I have made from this board far surpass any trophy...but I still want one!!

I also fish bass tourneys and no talking about what we are going to throw at them the next day. We sure have fun poking at each other the night before having a few cold ones and trying to suck info out of the top dogs...that seem to kick our butts every year! They fish 250 days a year and I fish about 50...if I'm lucky. They deserve the wins...they are out there putting more time and work in to it than me. But when I get in the money against these guys it makes me feel even better knowing I am on the coat tails of some of the better bass anglers around Missouri...and we have a bunch of them.

Good friendships and great memories is what some will take to their graves...not a trophy or a boat...although we did bury my uncle with his favorite trout rod after he asked the preacher if he thought there would be trout fishing in heaven. So...I might want to have at least one FE boat in my coffin when I go...just in case.

[Paul]

Hello Jeff,

Paul...39! Me too. arrrrg 40 in May!

Yep, I'll be 40 in July, AND I found out last night what I'm getting. Judi bought me a set of first class tickets to Vegas with a suite in the Caesar Palace Tower.:bounce: Now I've only took one vacation in my life and guess where it was, yep, Vegas. Man I love that town, talk about throwing away some boats. I don't know about you guys but I had a GREAT Valentines Day.

Paul

[Dick Crowe]

Go get em Jeff,
While I don't have a Bass boat, I do have a tourney Ski boat and have been known to throw a rapala on the end of my ugly stick when I needed a little break from the wake board. (Not sure how people will take that last sentance, but you know what I'm talking about).

Larry,
You give me too much credit. I remember that race all to well and it was the final and Jeff Vasquez and I were getting a little cozy. You are correct, I was very happy for Kevin Parsons who won the class. He had a very fast boat and could have won without backing into the win. That said, it wouldn't have bothered me If I came home with the trophy!

Viva Las Vegas Paul. Hope you have better luck then I. While I've never been to vegas, I've been to Reno a few times for conventions and I always hear a giant sucking sound hovering over me. The next thing I know, my money is gone.

See ya,
Dick

But Dick you are the master of the wheel of fortune at the casinos when I was with you!!! :hail:

[Dick Crowe]

Ahh yes, The wheel of fortune! You can play it all night long for 5 bucks!

See ya,
Dick