I have a question for the FE vets...

[Sorcerer 001]

I've been in to r/c cars for over 20 years, and I guess I've gotten a little to used to the plug and play nature of this aspect of the hobby. Little or no hand fitting, great instructions, and the provided setups generally get you in the zone of competetiveness.
I don't think I've heard of one kit boat that any of you would be happy to run straight out of the box, not to mention race. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as you're happy with the state of the fast electric hobby. But I have heard a few of you bring up the obvious lack of coverage of FE races and articles in Boat Modeler, and the local hobby shop employees ribbing of electric boat guys.
I've been hanging around this forum for the past few years and really enjoy talking with you guys. It's great to know that I can get advice from literally the best racers in fast electrics by simply heading to Rum Runner.
So I guess I should get to my point. I know some of the responses I'm going to get by posting this, since it's happened with r/c cars with the introduction of RTR vehicles.
What is the problem with releasing kits that come with competetive hardware, with pre-drilled transoms, and step-by-step instructions? I feel that the big thing holding many people back from fast electrics is the fact that in order to have a truly "fast" electric boat, you need to ditch the stock hardware and do lots of custom finishing. I can tell you from experience, most r/c car guys don't want to mess with epoxy when assembling a kit. That's why most car guys have a Kyosho or Traxxas boat sitting in their closet, and those are two reasons why they never get serious about fast electric boat.
I'm personally intimidated by drilling in to, and possibly screwing up an expensive hull. Or worse yet, epoxying everything in and finding that the hull is tweaked. It's not just a matter of buying a few new parts, it's a whole new hull!
I guess the word "standardization" is scary to most of you guys that manufacture these hulls, and I can understand why. One guy might love your hull, but want to run someone else's hardware. So what would it take to drill most of the boats for your hardware, but railroad a few off the production line with blank transoms?
And I guess another good excuse is that there are so many different power options. I can't beleive how many different choices there are. Not just brands within a certain size, but different SIZES. It's incredible! I'm really surprised that the governing bodies allow it. It seems the larger can motors are better suited to boats than 05's. And the exotic stuff ought to be restricted from all but SAW competitions or the "pro" classes. A $200+ motor shouldn't be allowed at any club event, unless all you do is run straight. Just my opinion, but I think a lot of fellow r/c car guys that have looked in to boats feel the same way.
I remember 11 years ago, when I bought my ABC Cesa, thinking I got a state-of-the-art hull. I threw in a good esc, bearings, and twin 11 turn mods. Pretty much the same setup I'd try today if I didn't know that this forum existed. I tell ya', after charging two packs for an hour, then running for two or three minutes, it wasn't that appealing anymore. This is what guys are still running in to with off-the-shelf boats at the hobby shop. They don't know what's out there, and once they find out they've got to epoxy, drill, sand, balance, etc..., to get a fast boat, it doesn't seem worth the trouble.
I'd love to see something like the FDM offshore boat at the local hobby shop, with a good hardware package, with all the holes either drilled or marked basically ready to screw together. And give the buyer a powerplant they can actually use. I don't understand these big boats with 05 powerplants! Neither does Chris Fine. :D
I'll finish this up when I get home tonight, but I want you guys to know that I'm not trying to start anything negative here. I'd like to know what the old guard thinks, and see how many people really want to see this segment of the hobby grow in terms of new blood. Later!

[Pooley929]

You know every time I get ready to drill a hole I stop and look at it and measure again 3 or 4 times then something in my head says forget it if I mess it up I can fix it with epoxy or ca not a big deal. Really when I think about it most of the hulls are not very pricey for just for the hull (worst case) But I will say after you get that good spot there is nothing like putting that boat in the water and it works !!!! Wow I love it. I have had my share of bad trips too, you learn, you change stuff , you have fun(mostly), I must admit its not fun to have a problem that you can't figure o I once had that kinda problem I was upset I changed something and did a quick slopy tape job slamed that sucker in the water and flipped it over wile slamming it was out of reach ........BAD day every thing in there was gone servo,Tx,Brand new LRP esc I said all that to say It is an addiction but I love it, So don't think so hard just do it !!!!!

[Drobie]

I thinks there's lots of room (and racing classes) for folks who don't want to go overboard. I'm one of them.

I've got other interests in my and for the sake of my sanity have decided to stick to the sport and spec sport classes. I haven't paid more than 35 bucks for a motor yet and I probably won't.

I also like running boats that look like boats and therefore will never own a rigger.

Most hobby shops generally stock the Kyosho and Traxxas stuff. No reason a club couldn't be formed around running those. The fastest growing model yatch in the US is the Thunder Tiger Victoria, an RC sailboat that can be on the water for about $100, right out of the box, so there is some validity to your point. But even that class allows a few hop ups and some vendors have jumped on the wagon and produced kits (with custom sails) to add a little performance.

I agree with you on certain aspects. The LSH is a new class that's supposed to be entry level, but it's already appears as though it's going to be dominated by folks with many years of experience.

What the heck, if you can't beat, 'em join 'em...or start organizing a class that is more "stock".

[Sorcerer 001]

Pooley - It's not just a matter of being able to slap some epoxy in a hole to repair a hull. It's being able to build the boat right the first time because the manufacturer knew the best combination and provided everything you need to make the boat competetive.
My concern in getting to to fast electric racing is that I'm going to be around a bunch of guys that are more concerned about keeping their "speed secrets" secret, than they are about helping the new guys learn. I have'nt seen too much of that type of attitude on this forum (none really), but I have experienced it in person, with boats, planes, and cars.
I don't have much time to build a wood boat from plans, nor do I have the skills. But I know my driving skills are up to par.
I think this new LSH class would be a great opportunity for BBY, Fine Design, or Fuller's Fast Electrics to offer complete packages to not only the green modeler, but also to the seasoned vet that doesn't want to have to run the $200 motors anymore. Someone mentioned that they were not going to run in the LSH class in order to give the newbies a fighting chance. i don't think that's the right way to think. That basically makes me think that the only way I would ever get a chance to compete with guys like Dick any of the "really fast guys" is by investing insane amounts of money in to several expensive boats.
Why hasn't the idea of graduated mains made it in to boat racing? The fastest guys in the A, then the B, and so on.... This way, the fast guys are running similar hardware and hulls, which would allow some of their knowledge to trickle down through the less experieced drivers.
Something has got to come around to generate some more interest in electric racing. I've been searching for guys in Oregon to run with for years, and have only come across five or six. And I race with 60 or 70 guys at my local off road track every Friday night. We've got plenty of places to run, yet I've never seen more than two boats on the water at one time.

[Andrewg]

You are right


Watch out for

1. the rum runner kits - the best boats in the world for lesthan a modified
2. Watch fastelectrics.com in 2002. Hot hulls redhot prices. fast boats. Especially for the car guys - add a motor and esc and gooooo! faaasssssstttttt!!!!!

Andrew

[furyusgeorge]

Sorcerer 001, you make some good points, so I'm not trying to be contrary, just throwing in my two cents...I've often wondered why cars are so insanely popular. I tried cars for a bit, and personally, found them dull. Perhaps it is because I have a performance car (1/1 scale) and motorcycle, whereas real boats are out of my reach.

Obviously, others see it differently, and people love cars. You can see far more hopped-up/customized vehicles around (again, 1/1) than you ever see boats. I think R/C cars will always be bigger than boats, and planes will be bigger than everything.

For me, as far as kit boats go, I'd hate to be driving the same thing as everyone else. Immediately upon buying a kit, I look for ways to "make it my own." Seemed the same with R/C cars...there were a million upgrades, and the top racers had the mega-expensive stuff.

Now I don't mean to pick on you personally here, Sorcerer, but I am getting mystified by the amount of people I hear lately saying if they can't compete with the top guys in FE, they aren't going to bother. If we all held such a standard in everthing we did, damn, we wouldn't do anything! If I looked at my boats and said "well, none of 'em will beat Larry Larson" and just threw in the towel...No matter what anyone does, someone will always be bigger, faster, smarter...

For me, I can't afford a boat that will compete with the big boys at the LA SAW's...but I can build a fun boat and have a blast with it.

Again, nothing personal, Sorcerer, your twenty years in cars far eclipses my RC experience, it's just that I'm an opinionated boob.

Regards,
George

[will_myster]

Im with george here, you cant live with the attitude that if you cant compete with people of the calaber of Lary Larson, Dick Crowe. Thats is a load of rubbish. The chances are with that attitude you compete and you will loose and not compete against them. I suck at racing RC boats. But never the less it doesnt bother me. So i go out and build my boats make them faster....

I also think the level of skill involved if boats far exceeds the level of cars From my perspective I have own a few r/c cars, and they where quite easy to use (ob4, 2* hpi nitros). I admit to begin with they were fun but the novelty wore quickly. all you have to do if make a couple of adjustments, paint decals, charge the batteries and your off within 2 days???

I beleive the hardest steps are the most rewarding, the chances are that in a few years time most records could probobly held by people whe havent heard of.

This is also why the creation of more affordable classes. IE ECO, M1,M2, LSH ect ect. These are the classes where you can put in a few bucks, spend a little time maintaining, and have heaps of fun with out holes in your pocket.

I don't think I've heard of one kit boat that any of you would be happy to run straight out of the box, not to mention race. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as you're happy with the state of the fast electric hobby. But I have heard a few of you bring up the obvious lack of coverage of FE races and articles in Boat Modeler, and the local hobby shop employees ribbing of electric boat guys.

I beleive that this is the most scary part of FE. Esspecially for new people, it is a big issue with FE and that is what seperates us from planes and cars.

But to be evident i think the FE community is such a good one, if they dont want to help you out. ( they really dont like you at all ). The FE community is one which is being nurtured at the moment by many people, like RRR, FAST ELECTRICS.COM, and hiding secrets and being ignorant is not the way to push the sport along.

Thats my 2 cents ;)

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

Well here's my .02.

1. I completely agree with most of what's been said. I've been blasted before for bringing up many of the issues that have been brought up in this post.

2. The rigger kit I'm working on will be exactly what your looking for, it will have full hardware, detailed race setup sheets, sport running sheets, and uses 05 mod motors which car guys are familiar with. We want to give you a kit that is SIMPLE to build and takes the guess work out. Not to mention it looks killer.

3. For the most part your never going to come up against the likes of a Dick Crowe, Larry Larson, DTJr.. It's a tiny segment of this hobby that go really fast, I'm not one of them but I can hold my own and I'm happy with that.

4. There simply aren't enough racers to support A, B, C mains. Hell, your lucky if you can get enough guys to fill a field in many classes.

5. LSH class, I thought this should have been a straight shaft, 700BB class, you know what I heard when I brought that up? "I won't race if it's a straight shaft setup" "you cant adjust a straight shaft setup" "It's not as fast as a flex (read complicated) setup" there was more but you get the idea. Yep, LHS will be dominated by the experienced builders, guaranteed.

Well I think I've yapped enough, let the spears fly!

Paul.

[furyusgeorge]

Shoot, Paul, the only reason you're not "one of them" is because you haven't made the trip to LA!

I don't think anyone in FE is as prolific AND does as clean work as you do.

Regards,
George

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Paul
5. LSH class, I thought this should have been a straight shaft, 700BB class, you know what I heard when I brought that up? "I won't race if it's a straight shaft setup" "you cant adjust a straight shaft setup" "It's not as fast as a flex (read complicated) setup" there was more but you get the idea. Yep, LHS will be dominated by the experienced builders, guaranteed.


Paul,

I really have to disagree about the domination. All the "fast guys" have publicly stated that theywill support the class to get it started (read, they will enter to make sure you have a class at your local race) but they don't intend to dominate it.

If you check out the rules page http://www.users.fast.net/~montana/boats/lsh_rules.html and go all the way to the bottom, the last two paragraphs, you'll see that the class is OFFICIALLY intended for the non-pros.

I developed and sold the Wild Fire for several years, marketing it in particular toward the very people who I thought would enjoy the LSH's. Of all the many many kits I sold, less than 1/3 were sold with straight drive systems. More than 1/2 of the boats were sold in the cheapest package - hull kit only. Many of them wanted something "cheap" but most of them were asking what I thought of hardware from Fine, DPI, etc. and wanted to know if I used Hughey or Octura flex cable, etc.

The LSH class rules, as they evolved by extensive feedback from RRR viewers (anybody remember how many guys made their first posts on that subject?!?!) that what the vast majority of the active boaters wanted was not a box-stock class but one that could be used as a springboard into faster classes such a P Sport.

Personally, I hope that the LSH class passes. I hope that it is offered at the Nationals, and I'm sure that if it is, the "big guys" will stay out in order to give the others a good shot at wining.

Another thing to consider: The guys who run expensive setups can forget what it takes to make an affordable power system perform. Sure, some things come with experience, but if the only thing you ever ran was a Speed 700, I bet you can make it perform better than Dick, Larry, or Jeff could without some practice.

Andy

[K.R.Joye]

I can definately agree with alot of whats been said. Heck,a good set of 2400s and a decent charger is a big enough hit getting you in to this hobby.
I think proposed spec classes like LSH and ECO and existing classes like N-1 and crackerbox are great ways of keeping costs down. Batavia has a good handle on hosting low cost spec classes. In fact I'd like to see larger spec boat classes could be developed using motors like the LM800BBX or 820BB Graupner motor. The Scorpian I set-up could qualify as a Offshore spec boat(Very inexpensive compared to most boats being raced in Q & S Offshore class)
The Europeans have been using the 700BB motors for years are experts at holding down costs.
It boils down to having something for everybody.
My 2 cents

[J Tracey]

Sorcerer 001,
I agree with you 100%. Look to Team Pirate.Net to offer three new lines of hulls in the next two months. Blackhawk will be producing 32 inch hulls in offshore, and we will offer them in blank hulls, almost ready to run and ready to run. We will also have it in outboard. A new hydro is also min the works for the same treatment. Look for them

[furyusgeorge]

One thing a lot of people that are less experienced (like myself) fail to consider is winning requires more than throwing money at a boat. One should learn what the "envelope" of his set-up is, regardless of whether it is high-tech or low-tech, then practice practice practice hanging it on the edge. Same principle as if you gave the average citizen a Calloway Corvette and gave Rusty Wallace a Ford Ranger...which one would run their vehicle to the limit? And which one would most likely win?

Regards,
George

[Drobie]

I'm firmly planted in Paul's camp on this. I hate to beat a dead horse, but it should have been one motor, one drive, one size cell, and a definitive hull size.

All the "fast guys" ....will support the class to get it started (read, they will enter to make sure you have a class at your local race) but they don't intend to dominate it.

Dream on. Who are the "fast guys" anyway? One LSH "amateur" racer has 30 boats. The vendors will want to dominate the class so they can sell more product, therefore they'll make sure they have experienced operators for their boats. It's simply American Capitalism hitting on all cylinders. That's the way it should be.

I think, in this class alone, NAMBA could go further towards leveling the playing field.

Granted, I understand how important the mercants who support this hobby are and I will continue to support them. But I would think that to be really successful, it's to their advantage to expand the hobby beyond "RRR viewers". If they have to stock more 700 BB and GR 1157's to sell more hulls, ultimately they'd probably win too. They'd be takin' orders for completed, rtr LSH rigs. Clubs might order a few to have on hand for newcomers and observers. (They might be taking orders anyway, but at $100 more than they could have been.

I don't think the way LSH was written is going to do anything for the growth of the hobby. The introduction of the Thunder Tiger Victoria in AMYA is the model that should have been followed. That class exploded in the first two years because it was an easy and inexpensive way to get on the water and race an RC yatch. And guess what, it hasn't hurt any vendor a bit. Everybody wins.

The LSH class rules, as they evolved by extensive feedback from RRR viewers.

If the class is intended to draw new participants, that was simply poor marketing. A good marketer thinks outside the box. RRR viewers are the elite of the hobby, regardless of their experience. In my opinion, what RRR viewers want should have been taken as input but not the bottomline. What I mean is that we don' need to attract people to the hobby who are already active in it. You don't have to convince RRR viewers, therefore their feedback should have been filtered.

The guys who run expensive setups can forget what it takes to make an affordable power system perform. Sure, some things come with experience, but if the only thing you ever ran was a Speed 700, I bet you can make it perform better than Dick, Larry, or Jeff..

Bingo!!! And if that's the case, why the heck does it make sense, when creating a development "spec" class, to force people to spend $40 more dollars on a motor (Neo vs. 700BB) and 20 or 30 more on a drive system just to be able to compete in that class.

After all this posturizing, the bottomline is that local clubs can (and should and will) do whatever they want to attract new members. The big events you read about here comprise a mininscule percent of the FE activity out there.

Find four guys to buy Kyosho Bladerunner and get on the water. You can do that for about the same cost as one hot Plett.

It only takes two to have a race. (And currently, that's exactly how big our brand new club is here in Mazo, WI.)

[Jeff Wohlt]

My first thought on that class was, I could not imagine all boats being the same with straight shafts, motor, etc. What the heck kind of race would that be? Going side-by-side the entire race, etc. and the only advantage would be the guy with the lightest boat.

Then I discovered Pine Wood Derby a couple weeks ago with my 7 yr old. Saturday we raced and was I surprised! We did all the hot stuff to the car, polished axels, perfect weight, etc. ran straight as an arrow and all that.

They all have to have the same specs...exactly 5 oz, etc.

I figured all these races would be very close because the name of the game is hitting 5 oz in weigh in.

BOY WAS I WRONG.....Got our butts kicked and we were the ONLY ones out of 35 cars that pegged 5 oz exactly on the scales!

My point is you would think the stock LSH class with all the same goodies would be very close or so close it would not be any fun....I now know differently. Everyone has their own tricks to get that extra edge and it really shows when they hit the water--or track.

I think I was more upset about losing than my 7 yr old--comes down to being dads against dads!! I'll be ready next year!!!

I still think using flex and adjustable struts should be allowed but in a 2nd class. Same motor specs, prop and adjustable strut -- props up to only a certain size or stock ones. This would be know as LSH Mod class. For people that like to adjust and fiddle with boat attitude this would be a good class.

[Garry Finlay]

I think we assume there are more resources in this hobby than there really are. In the Portland area we may get 4 people together on a nice day for a bit of fun running. Other places have much better participation.

But without as much hobby participation as with the car crowd, we will just slowly evolve to what you are asking for - a big selection of boats to chose from and a variety of races to attend.

In the mean time, come on over to MurryHill pond with Dave, Brian, Bill and I and we will have a good old time. I'll show you my new 1/12th LSH straight shaft pickle-forke.

Garry

[Ray Bidwell]

The first LSH race was Andy, Randy, and Dan. Now I don't know about you but I would rather race against the pros and get beat then run by myself or not run at all because I am the only new guy to show up at the race.

I think the LSH class and ECO class are great because everybody is running the same equipment for longer races where driving can come in. I love the fact that the Avenger will self right most of my first boating attempts ended with boats in the middle of the lake and swimming or fishing for them. I am sick of hearing that we can't compete with Dick the point is to run and have fun and we all can do that with Dick (he really is a nice guy). At the SAW it was money that got 80 mph Don said he spent $15000 but I did not spend any thing and still enjoyed the whole experience isn't that what it is really about.

[Pooley929]

Doug....I'm with you about the rigger what the deal with that, It doesn't look anything like a real boat so what good is it? Its gotta look real ie.... windows/people

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Ray Bidwell
The first LSH race was Andy, Randy, and Dan.

Actually Naomi drove that setup all last year. Tim Kerby used it at the Michigan Cup and placed 3rd against regular P Sport boats.

Think about that!

Andy

[Randy Naylor]

I think that the first replies were on target to answer the questions that sorcerer101 asked, the only thing that stood out to me that was not answered after the first three post was that sorcerer101 wants the hulls to be pre drilled and in his local hobby store. and this is a two part question first you want a pre drilled boat. Then at most vendors you will have to buy a RTR or in my case ask me to install the hardware. Simple! the second question why is it not at your local hobby store? Well, Maus Motor Sports tried to do that with a large supplier and they put him out of business. I would never want to hire the employees that it takes to produce that large of quantities and it is just too risky. I like my small business, I own the whole thing, no bank loans and only small head aches.

Onward to the LSH thing Paul. I have already stated that I will not race this class except in practice races with the DMWB to help the new drivers learn. At August heats Naomi probably was the most experienced driver out there. It was Dan Chases first Electric boat race, It was Andrews Floyds first Electric race. My wife ran for her fourth time. and so on down the line. I did not run in that class, Greg S. didn't, Trent Didn't, and so on.

[JfromJAGs]

You know what the worst is? Discussing something dead before it even started!

Give LSH and Eco a try, test it a year.

There are not many people out there who do something for the hobby, like Andy did with defining the rules. But there are lots of know-it-alls.

My 2cents.

Joerg

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

Randy, in my comments I didn't mention any racers in specific I was generally referring to an experienced modeler. I have only raced in organized FE competition one time and that was at Batavia. Most comments on Batavia are that it's a laid back event that really isn't up to the level of say a NAMBA race. I know how that sounds but that's the way it is regardless of wether someone would openly post it or not.

So, that being said where would I be classified? A rookie? By the definition I would say yep. I think we all need to compete in LSH class, record holders and newbies alike, otherwise who will be entered.

I don't mind being beat by more seasoned racers, it's how we learn. I'm very thankful I was able to race against the likes of Douggie and Ed Hughey. Both of them neatly handed me my transom several (lapped) times in P Hydro, as I recall I was dead last in all three heats. I didn't cry about it either although it was rather embarrassing. lol.

Remember what happened when LSH was proposed and I asked that it be a simple straight shaft 700bb class. WOW! I was shoot down big time and it wasn't by the new guys. I remember the point being hammered home about guys using boats from P Hydro that may have been shelved for faster models, what does that say about the class?

Sorry, back to the drilled hole thing, one of the things that would make the assembly process easier would be to have dimples on the hull where you should drill and well defined trim lines. Randy, on your boats you could match the dimples to your hardware, think you could sell more stuff that way? If a guy wanted your hull but not the hardware it would be a simple thing to fill the dimples. Just a thought.

Paul.