Who's game for 1/8 scale hydros?

[Steve Vasdekis]

It was kicked around just a bit at the CAFE CUP and I would like to see what others have to say. This is what I think, it should be any 1/8 scale hydro from any era, the boats can run any cells or cell technology as long as it doesn't exceed the 32 cell limit that namba set for insurance purposes. You can run any motor(s) and most importantly, I would like to see the race last 15-20 laps. I feel it's alot of money and it warrants more time on the water. What do you think?

[Dennis Whitt]

Mine is already on the way !!And Paul has picked out his hull as well as Chris.No problem on the Cell Teck or era type.I think that with these bi g Lehners alot is possable.10 laps would be more to my liking.But this winter will get the players involved and tighten up our rules.

[Drobie]

I've had some Newton plans for quite a while. It's just hard finding the time to build the puppy.

[Kmot]

32 LiPo cells would be how many volts? ;)

[froggy]

are you talkin a sport 1/8 scale or a scale 1/8 scale? Sounds cool either way. Would you run 1 heat or heats and a main? lookin forward to seeing some photos:D .

[JimClark]

Dennis does this mean you are ordering one from someone? Who is making them that would be light enough for electrics?
Jim Clark

Originally posted by Dennis Whitt
Mine is already on the way !!And Paul has picked out his hull as well as Chris.No problem on the Cell Teck or era type.I think that with these bi g Lehners alot is possable.10 laps would be more to my liking.But this winter will get the players involved and tighten up our rules.

[Paul]

Hello Jim,

Who is making them that would be light enough for electrics?

H&M and MHZ both have lightweight electric 1/8 scale hulls. Roughly 3 pounds as I understand it.

Paul.

[Dennis Whitt]

And yes Jim.I cant realy say what I think about those hulls yet but if the rest of what I have seen is true these will be light and high quality.And yes scale is the intent here to a point.
Actually we just thought that it would be cool to see a big bunch of beasty electrics like the bud or circus circus or the new T plus and ofcourse their is the T4 tri wing out there as well and a couple of old shovels.Tie those boats in with a big brute Lehner on a gear box and Ill bet you will think that there are real turbines under those cowels.
Big electric hydros doin 35 to 45 for 10 laps should be a gas !

[JimClark]

Please do keep us informed with pictures and whatever other info you can on the progress of this. I agree it would be very cool indeed can't wait to see some video.
Jim

[Randy Naylor]

Originally posted by Dennis Whitt
And yes Jim.I cant realy say what I think about those hulls yet but if the rest of what I have seen is true these will be light and high quality.And yes scale is the intent here to a point.
!

I like the idea but it will be a hard sell hear at this time. On the scale point or sport point, I have allways thought a blend of the two would be great for all the sizes. You know some times I like to do my own thing with paint and some times I like to paint it scale. get my point? good one Steve, By the way give me a call when you have a chance.

[AndyKunz]

I've been wanting to hear this for a while. I know there is a lot of interest, so much so that I have already started on it. In fact, I just received parts for the ESC to do this just the other day.

Instead of cell count, 32 cells = 40V nominally. I would use this as a cutoff for safety (go much higher and UL gets involved).

LiPo's at 3.6V would be 11 cells and would be at a tremendous advantage due to lighter weight for runtime.

10 laps will be nothing at all for the systems. It's probably the limit to keep racers from getting bored and/or screwing up due to stupidity.

24 cells will be great performance, too, and much more scale-like. No need to go outrageous.

Andy

[DJ Campbell]

One thing for sure, there are plenty of plans (Newton), decals, driver figures and all that stuff because of the 1:8 scale nitro hydro racng thats been around for years!

http://rcunlimiteds.org/

[K.R.Joye]

Coke can Lehners won't work with an R/C Hydros esc but a
`MACH 5 racing' 800GR`XL' on 24 cells will!!!!!!

I've had a number of requests for a higher cell count more powerful motor. I will soon have 800GR `XL' motors available. Same weight, size and design as my popular 800GRX. Couplers will accept .150 cable

`MACH 5 racing' 800GR`XL' testing could start soon depending on interest for a 1/8 scale class or Super Boat classes. (yes Super boat as in 40" plus Cats and Vee's)
Preliminary 800GR`XL' pricing would be right around $90.00 prepped for direct drive brushed applications.:D

Oh, count me in gentlemen!

[rbeyer]

I have been thinking of 1/8th scale electrics for years now. I have the newton plans, cowling and wings for the 1988 Circus Circus hull (the one that flipped in San Diego) and have yet to start the project.

Im my opinion, Classic Thunder, E-RCU and LSH are popular because the hardware rules are clear and easily understood. For example, E-RCU is 12 cells and an Astro 25-5 (for division I). LSH is 12 cells and your choice of 4-5 motors. If a similar concept can be put into place for 1/8th scale electrics, I think the class would take off. This doesn't mean you have to lock down the motors allowed, but a list of cell and motor combinations that are being used successfully would be a great start.

Part of the fascination with 1/8th scale nitro is the lack of guess work involved with getting started. Buy or build a hull (numerous sources available). Add the hardware (numerous sources available). Add a motor (numerous types of engines available but all are the same power - 11cc). The hardest part is setting up the boat but you know that your $ investment is worth it. I would hate to spend $500-$750 on an electric motor and batteries only to find out that it is not powerful enough, won't run 10 laps, etc.

Just a thought,

Rick

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by K.R.Joye
Coke can Lehners won't work with an R/C Hydros esc but a
`MACH 5 racing' 800GR`XL' on 24 cells will!!!!!!

Coke can Pletts will work, too - Chris Harris had one in his unbelievable fast S Sport in MI a few years ago.

But I'm more leaning toward a 1/8th LSH like class and 24 cells.

Andy

[Dunk]

Andy,
I can't find the plans right now but what was the size of the large Slo-Mo 4 plan I bought from you a while back? Anyway, I think I got them from you. Was it 1/8 scale, I can't remember.

Dunc

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

24 cells won't be enough unless your happy with LSH speeds. I ran the S-Sport in Ohio and was hitting mid 40s and wasn't really impressed. The boat was so big it "looked" slow although I think I clicked off a 1:04 heat time with the beast.

On a positive note, the wall of water coming off the skid fin was pretty impressive.:D

Paul.

[K.R.Joye]

Hello PAUL, mid 40s not impressive? Sheez..... How many laps do you think you could do at that speed?

STEVE's orig post mentioned 15-20 laps, even running 35-40 MPH for 10 laps would be quite feat for any FE setup with a boat 1/8 size. Get 4 or 5 FE 1/8 Scale hydros out on the course and believe u me it will be impressive. :D

[AndyKunz]

Duncan,

It was 1/12.

Andy


Originally posted by Dunk
Andy,
I can't find the plans right now but what was the size of the large Slo-Mo 4 plan I bought from you a while back? Anyway, I think I got them from you. Was it 1/8 scale, I can't remember.

Dunc

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Paul
24 cells won't be enough unless your happy with LSH speeds. I ran the S-Sport in Ohio and was hitting mid 40s and wasn't really impressed. The boat was so big it "looked" slow although I think I clicked off a 1:04 heat time with the beast.

Paul,

I think you need to go to a real Unlimited race. A 30' boat doesn't look that fast going 200 MPH.

Not all racing requires all-out speed. Consider a velodrome - they have races where part of the strategy is to go as SLOW as possible.

Personally, I'm quite satisfied with mid 40's performance on a 4' boat. It's very REALISTIC. If you want unrealistic speeds, go run a rigger - they even look unrealistic.

Andy

[Sheltered]

One of the interesting things that the nitro converts in E-RCU are experiencing is a cost savings. While the initial layout for batteries is high, they now understand if you care for them wisely, running an electric boat is far cheaper than a nitro one.....at least for unlimited scale type racing in the long run.

[JimClark]

I know there is going to be serious discussion's within the RCU (1/8th notro club in Washington) about eventually switching to electrics. Roger Newtom has already tried it with his hull but it needs to go on a serious diet before he gets a decent test.
Jim Clark

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

Ken,
How many laps do you think you could do at that speed?
About 8 laps no problem, maybe more.

Andy,

Driving that boat around the pins was like driving a Caddy down the interstate. What got my heart going was the fact I didn't "own" the boat anymore.
If you want unrealistic speeds, go run a rigger - they even look unrealistic.
I do run riggers, as a mater of fact after I build my new S rigger I'll have one for every class. And your right, they are fast and don't look anything like a "real" boat unless you consider my Q hydro (H&M EVO) kinda scale looking.
Not all racing requires all-out speed. Consider a velodrome - they have races where part of the strategy is to go as SLOW as possible.
I thought it was called "fast electrics", my mistake.

Bottom line, 1/8 Scale electrics are NOT for everyone, your looking at some serious coin to put one together and if I'm going to build one you can bet it will be done up right. They don't call them unlimiteds for nothing.

I also had a talk with Doug Forrester and their proposing a big drill motor/18 cell hydro class which I would go for too.

I doubt very seriously that there would be more than a half dozen or so of these 1/8th scale boats built so I say hang it all out boys.

Paul.

[AndyKunz]

You made 2 good points:

1) They aren't for everyone. Neither is N1.

2) There may only be a half dozen. Next year. After that, it may be a LOT more. Wait until RCU changes over, like Jim said. Then you'll be looking at 100 of them.

Hence my preparation ;)

Andy

[Sheltered]

It's not a matter of if, its when the 1/8th nitro scale guys come. If there is nothing they will probably start with the 1/10th scale. If there is a 1/8th tried and tested hydro, they would probably go that direction. There are easily 100 1/8th scale nitro racers in the Seattle Tacoma area.

[Kmot]

If someone is not already manufacturing a very light 1/8 scale hydro for electrics it would appear there is very good reason to start doing so ASAP! :cool:

[Steve Vasdekis]

You know, I can't believe how quickly the guys that raced at the CAFE CUP forgot about my 43" Challenger. My boat weighs about 15lbs. and ran mid 30s for 4 minutes. Put the exact same setup in an 1/8 scale hydro which the hull only weighs 3lbs, where mine weighed 6lbs. what do you think is going to happen? 10-15 laps is not a far cry, especially with a little as 3300s or even better, LI-PO! I ran full size 3000 maH C cells.

[JimClark]

Unfortunately unless opinions change the RCU guy's are looking for comperable speeds that their nitro boats are running now aprox 50mph. Personally i like the mid 30's to 40 mph I think it would work out well for the class but thats just an opinion from someone who would not be racing with you guy's. For me the 1/10th fits my pocket book just fine. I need to check out one of your motors Kevin.
Jim Clark

[indymike]

Hello all,

Jim, I am very surprised to see the 50mph comment about the 1/8 scale guys out West. Certianly they are going faster than 50 with a .67 nitro motor. I would of guess in the high 60's, if not more.

I know those guys out West have been "blazing a trail" with 1/8 scale nitro racing and hull design. Anyone that races 1/8 scale here in the East knows RCU is the cream of the crop....

Not trying to argue, just surprised.

Mike

[froggy]

i thought that those nitro 1/8 scales were up the 60s. And that is the only thing that might slow a change to electric in RCU. Unless new technology LiPos, BL set ups ect. bring the speeds up to a comperable level. For some folk it is only about speed and they might not want to go slow. Even if the racing is great and the boats super cool.

[Steve Vasdekis]

How many laps do the nitro guys race?

[JimClark]

Just a guess on my part I have no hard data on the speeds. The point was really that most would probably want to be able to keep the speeds aproximately the same. I just remembered where I got the speed from straight from Roger Newton himself in the following thread http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/feforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6726
Jim Clark

Originally posted by indymike
Hello all,

Jim, I am very surprised to see the 50mph comment about the 1/8 scale guys out West. Certianly they are going faster than 50 with a .67 nitro motor. I would of guess in the high 60's, if not more.

I know those guys out West have been "blazing a trail" with 1/8 scale nitro racing and hull design. Anyone that races 1/8 scale here in the East knows RCU is the cream of the crop....

Not trying to argue, just surprised.

Mike

[JimClark]

If they have a lot of boats they will sometimes run 3 lap elimination heats but most of the time they run 5 laps I think.
Jim

Originally posted by Steve Vasdekis
How many laps do the nitro guys race?

[Steve Vasdekis]

If it's 5 laps it would be safe to say they run a course twice the size of ours? If that's the case, I am certain that with the right motor we can get the electrics to run in the high 40s even 50s for five laps.

[Randy Naylor]

The Nitro 1/8 scale dudes in my aera run 6 laps thet equal one mile. they allso have a 2 minute mill. Speeds are in the 55 MPH range.

[Dennis Whitt]

Great posts guys !I think that big boats like this could take off.I am pleased to see all of the responses.As far as motor type and battery I think we should leave it open for now to help get everyones juices flowing.There will need to be alot of experimentation before we should consider locking down anything.
Holy smokes Ken do they make an 8th scale Canard like the Miss Elam that would be a cool project for you.You are the only one I know that has any experience running canards.
As far as a newby class Eddie,Having a newbie out there racing that kind of hardware....They wouldnt be a newbie for long !
I think for MC5 we should just say,Bring your best shot on this one.
As far as scale Randy wouldnt it be fun to race a large scale version of your favorite Hysro team ?

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Randy Naylor
The Nitro 1/8 scale dudes in my aera run 6 laps thet equal one mile. they allso have a 2 minute mill. Speeds are in the 55 MPH range.

That's right. And LSH also is a 1 mile run - 10 laps on a 1/10 mile course.

What is seemingly the most popular class in NAMBA right now? I seem to have forgotten...

Dennis - yes, they do. Now see if you can start him building!!!

Andy

[K.R.Joye]

Hey guys maybe we can pool our hull sources and come up with some manufactures to check out. I'm currently corresponding with a Co called Southern Yachts. Supposed to good at 8th scale light layup guy.
I'm swaying toward 2600's with my proposed 24 cell direct drive 800GR`XL'setup. I've found 3300's are to fickle for semi sprint racing.
Better yet 3000's or 3600 reg C nicad (right Steve) They run flawlessly in my 20 cell Twin Drifter and are a breeze to charge.

[Paul]

Hello Guys,
What is seemingly the most popular class in NAMBA right now? I seem to have forgotten...
Andy, you can't compare 1/8th scale to LSH, I really don't understand where your coming from. Just the size of the boat alone would make it prohibitive to most. On top of that batteries will kill the pocket book, even 24 sport cells. Most guys are running several classes at a race, and it's tough to do. 1/8th scale could be a great club level class but I bet it would never be a national level hotty. Look at S-Sport for example, lots of those floating around right?

Paul.

[Steven Vaccaro]

What if you guys could get your hands on a 24-30 cell motor and esc for these beasts at $149.00 total?

[DJ Campbell]

I have had a few Newton plans around for some years and always reduced them for electric. A question I have is the sponson angle of attack if a hull is built 1/8 scale. I had heard the angle of atttack should be steeper if you build from the plans for electrics. Is this still true and would this be true for 1/8 scale also?

[Sheltered]

One motivation for 1/8th scale nitro racers to switch to electrics is race sites. There are currently fewer and fewer that will allow the noise and other issues with fuel boats. You could race in a lot of areas where nitro has not been allowed for quite some time.

[Steve Vasdekis]

Are sport scale hulls allowed like hoover, stryker, pi allowed? They run in the 43" range.

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Paul
Andy, you can't compare 1/8th scale to LSH, I really don't understand where your coming from.

You were the one who compared them originally. I think it's a good comparison. Since you are obviously not familiar with RCU, you don't get the comparison. It's very good one.

Just the size of the boat alone would make it prohibitive to most.

$25 x 4 = $100.00 (24 cells) I believe you probably have individual packs that come close to that price tag, no?

Thank you for mentioning cost barrier. It makes my point - Cheap brushed motors (Ken, Steven), light hulls, and 24 cells.

Wood and foam hulls aren't expensive. Ask the E-RCU and CT guys.

On top of that batteries will kill the pocket book, even 24 sport cells. Most guys are running several classes at a race, and it's tough to do. 1/8th scale could be a great club level class but I bet it would never be a national level hotty. Look at S-Sport for example, lots of those floating around right?

S Sport got mucked up when submitted. Let's not get into how the rules as voted were different than the rules as run. That change screwed the class up in my opinion. That change is why I dropped it.

Andy

[AndyKunz]

It's 30" - it ran in P Sport at the 2000 Nats.

Video is on my site.

Andy

[Zippifried]

Let's see now-

* $90 for GR XL motor and $95 for an SC-3 HP (I have) OR $149 for motor and ESC via Steven. (put my 355/37 to use a bit early, maybe?)

* $100 for a set of 24 cells (Best deal, buy the BOX from Steven).

* $50 in wood etc, $35 for a full set of Newton Plans.

* Radio, larger servo, some home brewed hardware (or purchased hw if you can't / don't want to build yourself), larger wire drive (or will it be straight shaft only?), larger props, add in everything else that makes an FE tick.

* Time.

Doesn't seem much more expensive than they are already!!! More focus on building than buying, I like that idea! Should they all be ready for concourse? ;)

Take Care,
Paul

[Roger J. Newton]

Now this is a subject I can really get in to!! Earlier this year I tried an electric motor in my 1/8 scale 2003 Miss Budweiser. I used a Lehner 2280 brushless/Hacker 77 or 99 ESC[not sure which as I have both]. 30/2400 cells. It ran OK for about 3-4 laps. Not as fast as I had expected. Probably in the 35-40 MPH range. I figured there were three factors that contributed to what I thought was a lack of" blazing "speed. It weighed about 17-18 pounds. The sponson angle of attack needs to be increased just as we are now doing on the 1/10 scale. The Bud has sponsons that are 3 degrees now. And the sponson width should be widened. If I have time this winter I will give these a try.
My goal someday is to build a light weight hull to compete in RCU against the nitro boats. They have already given me the OK to do so. As far as speeds in RCU I radared them several times this season and found that most ran about 50 MPH or lower. There are a handful that ran over 50 with a couple of the better ones about 55-56 MPH.
Not sure if any of the manufactured hulls will work without being modified. Plus they need to be made lighter.
So, who ever is doing R&D on 1/8 scale electrics please keep us abreast of what works or doesnt work.
Roger- Go fast and turn left!!

[K.R.Joye]

My brother is currently setting up a 1/8 Bud for Gas. He says its probably one of the lightest (stock) hulls he has seen. Of all the hulls hes come across at races and with his club runs he claims the Bud is supposed to be easy to set up and they handle great in a varity of water conditions. He also runs a Stryker hydro and has had a few big Cats.

ROGER good point on the sponson attack angles and pad width.

[Dennis Whitt]

This started out as a couple of guys who wanted to run some pretty scale BIG unlimited hydros like the Tplus,Bud,Dewalt tools,Circus,Smokin Joes...Stuff like that.I am of the opinion that we have enough SPORT scale stuff.Lets make scale beauty and authenticity a priority and speed second.This was kind of a way to thumb our nose at the nitro guys because they untill latley are the only ones who could run this class with any kind of performance.
So at this point I would like to voice my humble oppinion and say NO ! to any kind of sport hull other than a true 8th scale unlimited hydroplane hull.want an example ? Just go to rodgers sight and pick one.

[Andrewg]

Dennis i can appreciate where u are coming from but

But Rogers words ring loud in my ears - the fact is what the class needs is a proof of concept model which runs with the 1/8th boats and does so competitively

The class should be good because electrics have a better power: weight ratio as the cell count grows (within certain limits)

1/8 is about the limit due to cell capacity-output limitiations

a 2002 Miss Bud to scale would weigh 12 lbs - this is very doable

it would have an output of approximatley 1800w - on 32 cells that equates to a 70 amp current draw - touch and go

peak speeds would be approx 63 mph

Thats a 2 minute runtime on a cell with actually capacity of 2400 - eg a CP3600

cut out two pounds and drop current draw by 10 amps and the power to weight ratio will drop back to similar to a 1/16th so it will be spritely!

looks like brushless motors are a must -they have a way better power:weight ratio and far more linear delivery in the top end where it all counts

But the setup doesnt have to be much more than a B50-XL on a 2:1 gearbox (this is the typoe of boat thay are needed in (think Paul Pachmeyers P hydro using a 170g motor on a hughey box pushing 4 lbs)

Look for a motor which gives you around 23000 rpm at the prop on a box ( rough formula (kv* cells *1.1*.75*)/2) - or use a motor of 300g+ direct drive. A larger the rotor diameter and multipoles will have some torque advantages and greater weight reduces the effects of heat (in a well designed motor)

The prop you are looking at is 47-55mm dia with a pitch of 1.6-1.8 and that should put you firmly in the mid 50's

On paper the thing looks very very do-able - 6 lb hull and hardware 300g motor and 150gm gearbox 100 gm controller

all up
13lbs for cp3600
11.6lb for a nickel metal hydride 3500
9.8lb for 1950AUP's

extra cost are a larger hull, a gearbox, or larger motor, extra controller capacity and 20 more cells than a P-Hydro

I hope there are some useful benchmarks here and look forward to seeing what variations modellers produce

[Steve Vasdekis]

OK I can dig on scale hulls. Now, this has to be decided right now, we need to decide how long we plan to run the boats, 5 laps? 10 laps? or whatever. Reason being is that it will help to modeler figure out a power plant. Maybe someone can make a poll chart and put it to a vote?

[JimClark]

Andrew all of the informaton you gave is good and I am sure appreciated . You need to remember there are really could be two distinct groups here. One RCU that is not controlled by namba ( they belong to APBA) and the guy's from the Cafe Cup who I think do belong to namba and will have different rules. They may very well decide to go different ways as far as powerplant or batteries or even as far as scale looks and detail goes. So what Roger Newton says about RCU's interest most likely only some of the discussion will apply to the namba group. I doubt there will be a standard between the two groups.
Jim Clark

Originally posted by Andrewg
Dennis i can appreciate where u are coming from but

But Rogers words ring loud in my ears - the fact is what the class needs is a proof of concept model which runs with the 1/8th boats and does so competitively

T

[AndyKunz]

NAMBA's 1/8 Scale class closely follows RCU so that they can race together where appropriate.

Andy

[K.R.Joye]

The nitro and gas scale guys run 5-6 laps per heat. Keeping it scale also sounds good to me. This is a hull i'm considering.

[AndyKunz]

Ken,

Start with the Dumas kit. Use all the mahogany parts as templates for balsa and lite ply.

Or better yet, just get a set of Roger's plans.

Andy

[Andrewg]

Jim

I dont have any preconceptions about the hulls but if people would like to go fast and challenge the .67 boats there are some
electric setups which will do it

my only point is 1/8th just happens to coincide with the upper parameters of reliable electrics in terms of scale power and an ability to run with nitro's

the broader issue seems to be will the nitro guys come across (ie will the rc marine community find common ground ) because the electrics are as fast and easier to own?

They could just as easily raise the motor capacity and go faster

[eddieh]

.

[Randy Naylor]

Dennis,
I like the scale point on the top of the hull but on the bottom there needs to be more freedom to make it work. One of the reasons that I have not built any 1/8 scale boats is because the thickness must be scale, there for to change angles it becomes hard to do. One of the big problems is with the compression in the front of the tunnel aera. That is what I was saying from the start a blend of scale and sport. something all new that will look like the real thing but perform the best it can.

[Dan Chase]

I'm with Dennis. If I were to get interested enough to build one, my motivating factor would be it needs to be SCALE. I have always wanted to build a 1/8 scale nitro boat, but I hate the slime! I also agree with Randy, there are a few areas where we may need to cheat scale, the bottom design, and possibly the prop location like we do in sport scale now. The important thing would be to "build" the top side of the hull scale with all the details and paint to match it's real life counterpart.

As far as laps go, I think they could vary, it would be cool to run them on a nitro course at 5 - 6 laps, maybe 10 on a standard electric course. It would be great to match the current speeds of the nitro boats, I think we would have to in order to convert a few of them to electric, I think that would be good for the sport overall.

[indymike]

I am 100% sure the guys in the IMPBA are modifying the sponsons/ride pads of there 1/8 scales.

I am about 90% sure the guys out West are doing the same. If I am not mistaken, a lot of the ideas we have (out East) started with the guys out West

Also, the "top notch" guys in my area are heat racing in the mid to high 50's, with some touching the 60's



FYI... This is copied off of the IMPBA web site


Engine and Boat Specifications

1. All boats to be modeled after Unlimited hydroplanes from past or present.

2. All boats to be built to a scale of 1 1/2" to 1'0" (1/8 scale) plus or minus 10% of the beam and 5% of the length.

3. Boats will look as scale as possible and meet the following requirements for racing and scale judging:

a. Cockpit with driver

b. Complete all major lettering and paint schemes

c. Effort must be made to conceal glow engine with fake
engine or cowling as per prototype boats.

4. Hull bottom and running hardware will not be judged or checked. However, hull must not deviate from conventional 3-point hydro (unless prototype was a different design).

a. Hull bottom must be scale appearing.

b. Belly pants are acceptable to clear engine and/or flywheel.

c. Secondary front sponson running surfaces are optional.

d. Air traps are optional.

5. Engine must correspond with IMPBA Class "E".

6. Boat shall use same number of propellers as the prototype.

7. The drive dog must not extend beyond the transom unless the prototype boat did so.

8. No twin rudder assemblies allowed.

9. Boats should have the ability to change frequency.

[Dan Chase]

Thanks, indymike! Now that's what I'm talking about! :yeah:

What about the drivedog, do we need to amend that rule like we do in NAMBA for the Sport Hydro classes?

[Dennis Whitt]

I dont think we need to use the drive dog rule.We are going to mount hardware on the transom.No sport hulls and I like the idea of scoring points for cetain scale features llike scale decals and numbers,clear canopy window with driver.Tail feathers will be a must period on any hull that should have them.A two lap qualifier to group driver experience and speed with a winner take all final.This is going to be an absolute blast !!!!

[indymike]

I knew this wouldn't take long....:D

If you allow the drive dog beyond the end of the transom, but original boat your modeling after didn't have the drive dog/strut beyond the transom, is your boat still "Scale"

IMHO, if you want a sport hydro build a sport hydro. If you want a Scale boat build a Scale boat. Remember, there is a certain "spirit" intended for this class.

Keep in mind, I am a "nitro" guy and I am an outsider looking in. I do read here on a regular basis. Hopefully, you guys can get a class going and I am only here to help not criticize.

Mike

[Andrewg]

Eddie -

i realise there are less places to run - essentially the situation here is similar - environmental concerns increasingly restiorct options for running especially or nitro guys

But nitro here is small compared to USA and population pressures are much less

My local club runs on a resevoir for a mine which is 4 miles from the centre of a small regional city (popn: 50000) in urban areas - they are increasingly restricted. In the state capital once course is the Olympic Rowing course which is a phenomenal facility. Others are essentially private.

I would prefer to see people using publicly accessible waterways again. However numbers are needed to make it sustainable.

therefore I reiterate the numbers i have put up are IMO a realistic and useful benchmark for achieving high levels of performance. lack of funds will slow me down but nonetheless this is where I am aiming my next new project

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Dennis Whitt
I dont think we need to use the drive dog rule.We are going to mount hardware on the transom.

If you are going to go scale, use RCU rules.

Tail feathers will be a must period on any hull that should have them.

But what about those that should have had them, but still ran without them? Been there, seen that.

A two lap qualifier to group driver experience and speed with a winner take all final.This is going to be an absolute blast !!!!

If you are going to go scale, use RCU rules!

I agree, it will be a blast either way.

Andy

[eddieh]

.

[Ladamercy]

Hi everybody,

i kept reading this thread and its really a very nice idea!
I would love to see a class like this over here in Germany!
I´ve had some experience with my 1/8 scale Budweiser (the german boy) and i must say that it is really difficult to get the boat fast. Another point is the required power to get it on plane. When i started my cells got empty after accelerating 4 times. Runtime was about 3 min (maximum) and the hull wasn`t even that heavy.
As you might remember i had a plett 355/45/4 and 36 cells installed but i wouldn`t gor for that another time. I think BL is the only solution. But a good 30 cell motor/controller combination ist very very expensive...
So costs are a very important factor and also all the weight for the detailing.....

Regards matt

[eddieh]

.

[Dan Chase]

I would agree that I would like to keep things as scale as possible. My question was more related to electric performance. I assume there was a reason that the electric sport hydros were allowed to extend the drive dog past the transom, all my boats have been setup this way (monkey see, monkey do ;) ). Maybe this is now a mute point with the current high performance E motors.

The closer we follow the nitro boats, the greater possibility we have in crossover, IMHO.

[AndyKunz]

Dan,

It's easier to get the tail up, and makes it easier to dial in. More ability to adjust.

Andy

[Dennis Whitt]

The reasons we are looking at transom mounted hardware is because I dont think any body would know were to start as far as angle and depth.A few of the hulls are comming from germany and for some reason they dont believe in directions.And I for one dont want to fool around with popping a drive in and out trying to get it right.Besides that what is scale about a flex drive weather it exits below a transom or out the back,Its still not scale !

[AndyKunz]

The RCU and Sport 60 guys don't seem to have a problem finding the right place for the prop. Why don't you ask them?

If you are going for scale appearance above the water line (because everybody needs to change sponsons, etc) then the strut bracket is going to be non-scale and detract substantially from appearance.

Some of the smaller full-size classes run the props like we do. To my memory, the only U-boat with it out the back would be the tunnel that ran in the 70's.

If you're going to go scale, USE RCU RULES! They have 20 years+ experience at it and they know what works.

Andy

[Andrewg]

Eddie watch false economies when you consider larger baots

the extra costs are a bigger hull - which is a given

the ones you can choose on are motor or motor gearbox

cells 8 cells = 1/2 horsepower at 45 amps

and controller cell limit


you can get cheap 32 cell motors

the extar 1/2 horsepower is what gives these things a better power to weight ratio - for sub-c's p:w is pretty well optimum at 32 cells

the controllers a 32 cell controller does not have to be wildly expensive if you keep the cell count up and the current relatively low

alternatively go for low cell counts and u have to push up current and get ahigh curent controller


an expensive 12 cell setup can be more than an low or mid level 32 cell 1/8th setup.

I will give numbers if needed but I have done the figures before

[eddieh]

.

[Randy Naylor]

The real problem with a strut that is mounted under the hull and not on the rear is that the strut blade is hard to seal. The nitro dudes do not have to worry about this, just make the hole bigger to let the water out on plane and have enough flotation when you stop to float the boat, no problem. With Electric the slightest pin hole sucks in a 1/4 cup of water. I have tried with my Eagles no luck.

[Steve Vasdekis]

OK fellas, I have my hull picked out, I have the motor and controller in my hands... have we decided on the race format? Either way according to the numbers with 20% slip figured in, the boat should run 53 mph for about 2.5 minutes which should be good for 10 laps.

[Randy Naylor]

Originally posted by Steve Vasdekis
OK fellas, I have my hull picked out, I have the motor and controller in my hands... have we decided on the race format? Either way according to the numbers with 20% slip figured in, the boat should run 53 mph for about 2.5 minutes which should be good for 10 laps.

I think that the race format should be decided after several reports have been made from the new boats. As with all the rules seeing what comes up, this will allow the most creativity. What motor and SC are you planing on using? OH and Steve could you give me a call?

[K.R.Joye]

Originally posted by Eddieh
but if you got a beast of a brushed motor say the 800 or I have a 1000 size motor, it would seem that is what to shoot for with the minimum amount of cells, and how much torque at that rpm... maybe you can only spin say a 50mm prop, but the brushed will spin a 55 etc keep it light and the cell count is 24 or 18 whatever there is less power needed to push it, keep it on plane etc... where do you reach the point of diminishing returns, for example a 24 cell boat 35-40 mph and 32 cells maybe 45 mph, but then add the costs involved... and ok you want that 5 mph, but what f the controller gets wet etc... but racing cheaper adds a little more fun to it....

EDDIE I TOTALLY BELIEVE IN YOUR THEORY. THESE GUYS CAN DO ALL THE BL BENCH NUMBER CRUNCHING THEY WANT, UNTIL THEY DROP IN THEIR SETUP AND GIVE IT A TRY ITS JUST A BEST GUESS! :D

K.J.

[Steve Vasdekis]

Your right Ken mine is a guess right now, but you saw my 43" deep vee run for 4 minutes in the mid 30s, so with the same power plant and different prop wouldn't it be safe to say my numbers are real close?

[K.R.Joye]

agreed Steve! Nice setup on that Vee of yours.

What cracks me up is the guys who are giving advice with no intension of putting together a big boat.:shrug: :confused:

[Paul]

Hey Guys,

What cracks me up is the guys who are giving advice with no intension of putting together a big boat.

LMAO!!!!! Ken, your reading my mind!

Paul.

[Steven Vaccaro]

What cracks me up is the guys who are giving advice with no intension of putting together a big boat.

So people that wont build the hull have no clue or insight? Maybe you guys should take the discussion private if it bothers you so much.

[Randy Naylor]

Originally posted by K.R.Joye


What cracks me up is the guys who are giving advice with no intension of putting together a big boat.:shrug: :confused:

And How do you know this?

[AndyKunz]

Didn't you see, Randy? Paul can read minds. We don't even have to post here, I guess, and he already knows what we're thinking.

I wonder if he can name the 3 guys who asked me to build them 1/8 scale hulls for electric several years ago. I think I might have told Dennis about them when it came up. Maybe between me and Dennis he can mind read enough to give the answer.

Andy

[K.R.Joye]

Originally posted by K.R.Joye
What cracks me up is the guys who are giving advice with no intension of putting together a big boat.:shrug: :confused:

HEY GUYS JUST USING A LITTLE REVERSE PSYCH TO GET A FEW MORE BIG BOATS GOIN OUT THERE! :D

[eddieh]

...

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Eddieh
...and like unconventional thinking..... but to each there own...

Is that how you got the UN job?

Andy

[K.R.Joye]

Hey sorry i offended anybody by my comment earlier. :(

[eddieh]

Originally posted by AndyKunz
Is that how you got the UN job?

Andy

NO

[Paul]

Hey Andy,

Didn't you see, Randy? Paul can read minds. We don't even have to post here, I guess, and he already knows what we're thinking.

Read the post again Andy, if I could read minds I'd already be a millionaire.

Paul.

[T.S.Davis]

Originally posted by Paul
Hey Andy,



Read the post again Andy, if I could read minds I'd already be a millionaire.

Paul.

Yeah Andy. Paul just meant it was easy to read his mind.

Aren't you guys getting carried away? Rules, regs, restrictions? Does anyone really think this "class" would expand. I'd be surprised if you got a dozen guys coast to coast willing to spend the coin required to party this hard. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun or shouldn't be done(great show for sure). It's just that these will be big monsters built by an elite few. Do you need restrictions to govern a handfull of guys? It could be like our unlimited offshore. 1/8 scale(size), don't hurt yourself. There's the rules. haha

Maybe Steve should have worded his first post different. Like this maybe:

I was thinking I'd build a big a@@ hydro, will somebody come out and play with me?

Just food for thought guys. I'm for sure not building another 20 cell plus boat. I had trouble chasing 68 cells last weekend on Sunday. That's enough for me.

[AndyKunz]

Sorry, Paul, I read it backwards.

So KEN is the guy who reads minds?!?! He must work in GM Engineering - that's why Buicks look like Chevies look like Olds look like .... :D

Hey, I wasn't trying to be offensive. Terry has some good points, but I think he's under estimating the size of the class. Once it is shown how to do it, I think there will be a flock of them moving up to electric.

Andy

[K.R.Joye]

Cool TERRY chimed in. Was just talking to DENNIS we need a 3rd boat, common buddy give you something to do over the long hard winter. LOL

[K.R.Joye]

Originally posted by AndyKunz

So KEN is the guy who reads minds?!?! He must work in GM Engineering - that's why Buicks look like Chevies look like Olds look like .... :D
Andy


A, maybe back in the 80's ANDY. Now days were leading the pack! Hope someday you'll see the light and buy American. Help keep us auto workers employed.:D

BTW went on Newtons plan site and all his plans ranged in the 29-36" range. Isn't 8th scale supposed to 43"ish?

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by K.R.Joye
Hope someday you'll see the light and buy American. Help keep us auto workers employed.:D

When the quality and price are comparable, I will.

BTW went on Newtons plan site and all his plans ranged in the 29-36" range. Isn't 8th scale supposed to 43"ish?

I don't see the dimensions - where exactly on www.newtonmarine.com are you? Did you perhaps pull up the CT/E-RCU pages?

Most of the real boats are 28-30' long. 28' = 42", 30' = 45".

Andy

[JimClark]

Not sure where you were seeing these dimensions but all of his plans I think are for 1/8th scale.
Jim
NOriginally posted by K.R.Joye
A, maybe back in the 80's ANDY. Now days were leading the pack! Hope someday you'll see the light and buy American. Help keep us auto workers employed.:D

BTW went on Newtons plan site and all his plans ranged in the 29-36" range. Isn't 8th scale supposed to 43"ish?

[T.S.Davis]

Originally posted by K.R.Joye
Cool TERRY chimed in. Was just talking to DENNIS we need a 3rd boat, common buddy give you something to do over the long hard winter. LOL

Can you imagine Dennis and I on the course at the same time with 40+ mph battle stars? You better make yours out of cast iron. I've got too much to do as it is.

[froggy]

Jim Clark posted that this past weekend one of the 1/10 scale boats went 45 mph on 18 cells probably with a brushed motor. Don't know about run time though. Dosen't seem like you need to run 36 cells to get some speed out of larger scale hydros. Run a BL set up on 24 cells would probably get a 1/8 scale built to run on electrics going.

[Dennis Whitt]

Ok heres what I am thinking so far.
8th scale hydros at 39 to 43 inches.
Must be decalled in an authentic sponsor and colors.
Hull type,3 point,4 point,canard,and lobster boat, shovel ok as long as you have proof that it raced in a unlimited race. NO CATS !
Pre race judgeing will include: flow through intake 10 points
detailed cockpit 10 points,clear windsheild 10 points,detailed engine 10 points( for piston boats ) Drive with prop afixed under hull 10 points,Blacked in windsheild -10 points,Peoples choice 10 points.All boats must have propper stabalizer wings attached to hull weather turbine,piston or shovel.If any scale features fall off of a hull during competition ie,wings, cowels,drivers.That driver will be assessed one penalty lap.unless it was caused by a collision with another driver.CD discression.
This race will be held on a normal NAMBA oval course 170' by 30' for 10 laps.Still up in the air about actual heat structure best of three or 2 qualifiers and a final.
You guys have great ideas and I apreciate every ones comments.I was a little put off by guys who dont show up to races getting involved but hell your ideas are so good I wish you would go ahead and get to a race.Keep it comming this is definately going to be a great winter project and one heck of a race !!!!

[JimClark]

The details of the boat listed below are 5.25 pounds 36 inches long astro 25/5 and 18 2400 nicads with a 51mm carbon graupner prop.

Originally posted by froggy
Jim Clark posted that this past weekend one of the 1/10 scale boats went 45 mph on 18 cells probably with a brushed motor. Don't know about run time though. Dosen't seem like you need to run 36 cells to get some speed out of larger scale hydros. Run a BL set up on 24 cells would probably get a 1/8 scale built to run on electrics going.

[froggy]

Dennis would the no cats rule ban the tunnel hulls like the Tempus or Arnow unlimited/Texmo hull? They were both real unlimiteds.

[Dan Chase]

Dennis, how about adding 6 lap heats on nitro courses in addition to 10 laps on a FE course? This could help some of the guys that don't have FE clubs nearby as well as a great introduction to FE to the nitro clubs. It's just a thought, but I think the standard FE course is going to get real small with boats that size. I like the idea of adding points for detail, but shouldn't there be more in the way of keeping the hull scale?

[Andrewg]

Ken and Paul

so who is giving advice and not building a hull?

Eddie

I might have been optimisitic

taking a P hydro - rigger using a hacker 50Xl

u can do a 24 cell cell boat for about 150 more and the 1/8th would cost from $330 more - thats with cells

my computer modelling - yes guys its fake - indicates Steves mono motor on 30 cells will make "on weight" scale boat capable of sticking with a decent .67 for 3+ minutes using 3300's.

I dont think u are going to get out of one of these for much less than $1300 retail if u start from scratch - less if yu have a 30 cell controller and 30 of the same cells.

Steve

It looks like you will be first in. Are u overgearing the 1817

[Dennis Whitt]

Well we were realy trying to keep this a race of the big turbine boats of late vintage but now Ive heard some one is thinking of running a big shovel.
Dale are you planning on comming out to MC5 and race a tunnel ?Or just pointing out a flaw.If you are genuinly interested and you have that hull than I can understand that question.Does RCU allow that hull ?

[Sheltered]

If the real boat hit the water at a sactioned race site, then RCU will allow it.

Jim Lilly

[AndyKunz]

Got the plans scanned, ready to start chopping balsa!

I guess I won't be able to compete, though - I won't be doing a scale sponsor. I _will_ have fun, though!

Andy

[K.R.Joye]

Originally posted by Dennis Whitt
Ok heres what I am thinking so far.
8th scale hydros at 39 to 43 inches.
Must be decalled in an authentic sponsor and colors.
Hull type,3 point,4 point,canard,and lobster boat, shovel ok as long as you have proof that it raced in a unlimited race. NO CATS !
Pre race judgeing will include: flow through intake 10 points
detailed cockpit 10 points,clear windsheild 10 points,detailed engine 10 points( for piston boats ) Drive with prop afixed under hull 10 points,Blacked in windsheild -10 points,Peoples choice 10 points.All boats must have propper stabalizer wings attached to hull weather turbine,piston or shovel.If any scale features fall off of a hull during competition ie,wings, cowels,drivers.That driver will be assessed one penalty lap.unless it was caused by a collision with another driver.CD discression.
This race will be held on a normal NAMBA oval course 170' by 30' for 10 laps.Still up in the air about actual heat structure best of three or 2 qualifiers and a final.

DENNIS your proposed rules sound very good! Its important we stick to a certain length requirement. If i go scratch built you bet it will be min length. I also like D Chases cavet of optional 6 laps on a Nitro course. (Also , we have to drag TERRY into this somehow some way)he he he......

[AndyKunz]

Dennis,

Flow-through intake on a shovel? Does that mean you're penalizing somebody, or are you just going to give them the points, or maybe use engine detail as 10 points instead?

Andy

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

Andy, I think the engine detail would work for the points on the shovels.

I'm building my own hull as well, I'm going with the Atlas Van Lines boat with exposed driver. I also plan on doing a detailed engine even though it's covered by the coweling. I gotta say though I figure on spending 1500.00 by the time it's all said and done. Considering the motor, controller and batts will be pushing the G-Note territory 1500 is not out of the question.

Paul.

[Dennis Whitt]

I felt I needed to even out the scoring proccess so that both hull types could recieve points asociated with the engine compartment.

[AndyKunz]

Opening the intake on a turbinel for flow-through takes 5 minutes and a Dremel tool. Detailing a piston engine can take many hours. Looks like you're trying to give a turbine some freebie points.

Now if you did a L-7C to the same level of detail as one of Eddie's buddies does to an Allison, then you are getting much closer.

Andy

[Dennis Whitt]

I have done a couple of those myself and it may not be as involved as a full allison detail but if you only spend 5 minutes with a dremel its gonna look pretty nasty !
Are you in on this,Should we figure on running this on Saturday ? Do you have a better idea ?Its a good point.I just wished people focused more on solutions instead of digging up problems.

[AndyKunz]

I'm not going to do any detailing - I'll just have to whoop you on a perfect 1200 point finish.

I'm going to be coming at my project from the sport boater angle, not the competition. Mine will be an RCU-legal hull (prior to painting), will have a brushed motor, an Emperor Penguin ESC, and 30 or 32 cells.

Andy

[Kmot]

Emperor Penguin ESC

Any more info about this new speedo Andy? :)

[AndyKunz]

It will be the highest-power of the Penguin line - 40volts (32 cells), 90A. I haven't finished it yet, so don't go trying to order one.

I am coming out with it because of the new interest in the high-voltage stuff. There are some Unlimited Offshore as well as Unlimited Hydroplane guys needing them. I'm looking forward to being ready when all RCU becomes E-RCU!

Andy

[froggy]

Hey Dennis
I like the class, But i will probably wait till some are built to find out what set ups work best. Plus it would not be cost effective to commute to Michigan from Seattle to race. More scale the better.

[Randy Naylor]

Originally posted by froggy
Hey Dennis
I like the class, But i will probably wait till some are built to find out what set ups work best.

I feel the same way,, But I am starting on the hull anyway. Just trying to decitde weather to build a plug and do it in ABS and then be able to make a fiberglass mold or to scratch build it out of wood.



[/A]
Plus it would not be cost effective to commute to Michigan from Seattle to race. [/B]

I think you should come to the MI cup , that is only one trip.


Now if I can get Dan Chase and one other person we will have a class for next year. I wonder how the GRX 800 motor will push the boat. That would keep cost down for the unemployed.

[K.R.Joye]

RANDY, i'm planning on using the new 800GR`XL' on 22-24 cells. Same package just wound differently.:D

[Randy Naylor]

Ken That is interesting.
The boat I am thinking I will build is the 1977 bud. Only it may take me two years to finish. Scratch building takes a bit of time.

[Dan Chase]

Andy, Put me down for first in line for the Emperor Penguin ESC! I'll need something to go with my Plett 1800! :D

I can't afford BL right now.

[Steve Vasdekis]

I've been doing some thinking and this is what I thunk! Maybe we shouldn't have it as just a scale class we should allow sport hulls, just make sure they are with the size limits. I have been doing some research and what I found is that with going after the scale look there are very few boats out there that are available, other than building them yourself from plans. Also the scale boats need many modifications for electric especially the taping part. I don't know. What say you?

[Randy Naylor]

I like the idea that the less scale the less points you have to start with that Dennis was talking about, To stop someone from running, because the boat is too sport, like is not good for the hobby. We want to encourage people to race and grow the hobby bigger.

[Zippifried]

Awe, Steve, just build one!!! ;)

Let me see if I've got this straight:

1. Get plans (www.newtonmarine.com).
2. Make necessary edits for FE running right on the plans.
3. Get some carbon paper, trace the plans on to the appropriate stock.
4. Using a scroll saw (something like http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=38596) and a belt sander (bench mounted, for shaping), make parts.
5. Build a jig to keep things straight and true.
6. Put the pieces together.

Add the rest of a "typical" boat building session.

Sounds like a lot of fun to me!!! Winter Withdrawal? NO WAY! ;)

How would this work: 32 GP-3300 cells, Plett 355/37 4 turn (BIG motor), direct drive, wire drive (1/8th inch wire? Strut underneath) in a 1/8th scale hull.... Prop? Prop? hahahaha

Take Care,
Paul

[Paul]

Hey Guys,

To stop someone from running, because the boat is too sport, like is not good for the hobby.

Like it has been mentioned over and over again boats this size (1/8 scale) simply aren't for everyone and I think that there are more than enough classes for new blood. So, you want to attract established racers ie nitro guys that are scale freaks to begin with, more potential growth there than from an FE newbie any day.

I guarantee you this, if your not running something as strong as a 2250/2280 for a motor your going to be walked on. Just like S-Sport your not going to see a ton of people doing this. They may think they want to but when the reality of carting a big boat around and how much they will cost to be competitive sets in....

Just a quick question, how many guys have run something like this? How many guys have run more than 12 to 18 cells in a boat?

The more I think about it the more I think it should be a scale class, look at it as the Top Fuel of FE.

Paul.

[Zippifried]

I guarantee you this, if your not running something as strong as a 2250/2280 for a motor your going to be walked on. Just like S-Sport your not going to see a ton of people doing this. They may think they want to but when the reality of carting a big boat around and how much they will cost to be competitive sets in....

Wahoo!!! The Lehner's 'ya mentioned are there w/ a Plett 355 (Chris Fine's 50 series Cordites at 2 to 3 hp, also datasheets at Plett's site), and the ESC won't be NEAR the cost of a BL ESC (not to mention not having to worry about magic smoke). And, I've got one in my hands right now! LOL Carting around? I got water out back!!! And a GPS to clock it! ;)

Just a quick question, how many guys have run something like this? How many guys have run more than 12 to 18 cells in a boat?

Oh, 'ya got me! hahahah Nope, haven't run anything w/ this high a cell count, but hey, why not? :) I was starting to get discouraged with the run it / trash it method I've been reading so much about- this gives me new hope, something I can put some time into and not wonder "now why did I waste my time?".... :) Heck, 'ya might even see some of my pending projects for sale in the swap shop over this one!!! LMBO

It all reads great to me!!! :)

Take Care,
Paul

PS- Yep, I'm with 'ya, I'm all for scale, not really interested in more sport scale... :)

[Dennis Whitt]

Sorry Steve ,Everything else in FE has been turned into "Sport this and sport that.Not this time.There are plenty of hulls and kits out there Steve You just got to look a little harder.
I am hearing 24 or maybe Ill run 30 to 32 cells.Im pretty sure Paul P.Chris F.,Ken J,Steve V., and myself have been talking about a 32 cell , 8th scale class.Lets keep that in mind.Also this isnt some shot at starting a new NAMBA class.Just some gentlemen who are getting together.To run BIG,High horsey,Gorgeous boats.If it turns into anything more than that.
Andy Iam glad that you are adjusting your products to some bigger stuff.But you still havent answered my question.I know you dont race on sunday.So should we make sure this is raced on saturday ?

[froggy]

I like the sound of making 1/8 scale the top fuel of FE. I always thought of 1/8 scale gas as the pinnacle of gas racing. Could easily start building something just need to up size my 1/10 scale plans a bit. :D

[Zippifried]

Sorry Steve ,Everything else in FE has been turned into "Sport this and sport that.Not this time.There are plenty of hulls and kits out there Steve You just got to look a little harder.

I'm with 'ya on that. ;)

I am hearing 24 or maybe Ill run 30 to 32 cells.Im pretty sure Paul P.Chris F.,Ken J,Steve V., and myself have been talking about a 32 cell , 8th scale class.Lets keep that in mind.

Here on the board, perhaps you guys have sparked a bit more interest than you realize..... ;)

Also this isnt some shot at starting a new NAMBA class.Just some gentlemen who are getting together.To run BIG,High horsey,Gorgeous boats.If it turns into anything more than that.

Awe, Why not? :) Sounds like something that NAMBA is NEW to, that is, SCALE without the SPORT piece..... I like that!!!

And that's my $.02.... ;)

Take Care,
Paul

[Dan Chase]

No sport boats! If it's scale you have my interest, if it's sport I'll probably just finish my S Sport Hydro.

I'm also leaning more and more to keeping the drive dog behind the transom, if were going scale, let make it really scale!

Maybe the Florida Nats would be a good target to shoot at as an exhibition class?

[Andrewg]

Dennis

43" is only 29ft 4" at 1/8 scale. Should length go up to 52" for boats such as the Miss Thriftway Too which was 35'.

Also I have attached a pic of scale v12 I am using. Can they get points for wind resistance!!


Paul

Aveox do bigger motors too and they are way cheaper than Lehners. The 1817's are grunty. Rang Aveox today about a 1.5 wind on the sensorless I think the new numbers are 4643. - around $250 for 4 wind.

Also the amps are not going to be as high as straightline these dont need a 150 amp controller they need 60-70amps. More draw than 45-50amps and the cells will not give good runtime.

Have you thought about doubling your P-sport setup? And using a FDM box with an XL Hacker?

[JimClark]

Andrew where is the scale V-12 comming from and what size is it?
Jim

[Randy Naylor]

Oh certainly the larger boats will be OK

[Andrewg]

Jim

my glass guy makes them - they are 1/8th size and resin

I am using a chequerboard hull for the 1/8th which I will be building over your winter/my summer, I hope. The motor is made for the nitro version of that hull.

I am going to have a motor and hull made in a somewhat lighter layup than the 1/8th guys run. Looking for a 4lb hull with red gel coat (no paint!).

A guy in my club runs the same hull with a nitro setup which is well developed and fast.

Looking at the metric version of the 1817 and a geared a Hacker 8XL & Aveox3638/1.5 for converters as I already have the latter two and use the former in an industrial application (and the numbers look right).

Should be a fun project - just have to find money for 30 1950aups or 3700's when they arrive!

[Randy Naylor]

Originally posted by Andrewg
Jim

my glass guy makes them - they are 1/8th size and resin



What is the cost for the motor?

[Andrewg]

they sell for $55

[Dan Chase]

Andrew, what's the availability on them and how much do they weigh? Are you selling them?

Thanks!

[Andrewg]

Dan - the nitro ones are too heavy for electric - but I am working on a new layup to ligthen them - you could spend a week with a dremel if you are really keen

BTW the motor does not come whole - it needs to be assembled so the parts can be ligthened.

I keept hinking they would look cool in a 1/16th slightly overpowered look but fun lol

[K.R.Joye]

Have we settled on a min length yet? I'm currently working on a deal on a 40" shovel.

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

The Lehner's 'ya mentioned are there w/ a Plett 355
Paul, on paper yes but in practice it aint the same. I have one also and tried it in my S-Sport boat which is 36" on 24 cells. Let me put it this way, the boat ended up with BL power to really motivate it. But don't let that stop you from trying it, on 32 cells and a GB you could be in the hunt.
Aveox do bigger motors too and they are way cheaper than Lehners. The 1817's are grunty.
Got one and tried it. It ran good with no heat but I would rather have RPM. Personaly I want 30K plus at the prop and I'll get it. One thing I've found running these big boats, paper and practice are 2 different ball games.
Also the amps are not going to be as high as straightline these dont need a 150 amp controller they need 60-70amps.
I aggree, I'll be running a Hacker 77 which should be plenty.
(/QUOTE)Have you thought about doubling your P-sport setup? And using a FDM box with an XL Hacker?(/QUOTE)
Yep, and THAT setup will be in my S-Hydro next year. The problem with that is it's a amp hog so in a rigger it's OK, in a big scale boat I need a motor with mass.

Keep in mind guys, we're going to be running 10 FAST laps. It's not as easy as it may sound, I found that tuning was much harder on a big hydro that it was on the 1/16th and 1/12th boats.

Paul.

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Dennis Whitt
Andy Iam glad that you are adjusting your products to some bigger stuff.But you still havent answered my question.I know you dont race on sunday.So should we make sure this is raced on saturday ?

We are going to IA and SD for vacation next summer. If we stop in MI it will be an over-nighter with Tim Kerby and then move on. No airplane or boat meets aside from Toledo, NEAT, and local stuff. We have our big local E-vent here June 5-6 that I'm a vendor at.

Have you guys ever contacted Tim?? - he wants to be involved!!! Ken has the contact info for 2 or 3 years. If you need it again, e-mail me. He's up on Ovid, about 45 minutes from Lansing site.

Even if I come, I won't be able to compete with you guys - it will be a Scale hull with a Sport finish.

Andy

[froggy]

what if the boats are Scale models so if the real boat was 28 feet long is 1/8 scale counterpart would be 42 inches long. likewise a 30 footer would be 45 inches. That is what we are doing in C.T. and E-RCU 1/10 scale. It adds just that little bit more to the class. Otherwise just make a spec hull and paint like your favorite boat past or present or even fictional.

[AndyKunz]

That's what I'm doing, froggy.

Andy

[Andrewg]

Paul

come on lets have it - whats all the sniping for?

my benchmarking is sound practice and based on empircal as well as theoretical data.

I take it you ran the 1817/2 on 24 cells - I agree its way too slow for that., but then a glance at the numbers tells you that - thats why they have specifications for motors isnt it?

[Andrewg]

How hard can this be

In 1983 Christian Lucas ran a 10lb hydro (used a Crapshooter 60 hull) thru the traps at 48mph – he was using 1500 cells – read 30 amps max and a 4” long 36mm diam motor –(at least that what it mesures as from some blurry pics) ie a 290/30 sized Keller

It simply isnt that hard anymore!

[K.R.Joye]

Got word from my brother today that his bare hull PRO BOAT 8th Scale Bud weighs in at just over 7 pounds. That with stock cowl, wings,and uprights. Alot heavier than we thought. Anyone going this route? I can see why a lot of scale guys go with the older shovels for lightness, no wings to worry about. Tail fins weigh less.:D

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

come on lets have it - whats all the sniping for?

LOL, you must be joking, I won't bother to go there.

Paul.

[Paul]

Hello Ken,

Got word from my brother today that his bare hull PRO BOAT 8th Scale Bud weighs in at just over 7 pounds.

If your looking for glass a H&M or MHZ hull will come in at half that weight.

I'll be keeping a close eye on the weight of my wood boat as I'm in the building process. My goal is 3 pounds which I really belive is attainable. We'll see though, it's a balancing act between weight and strength. My biggest concern is with 32 cells sitting on the bottom of the hull. If we attain that 50mph speed a blow-over could be the end of the boat.

My first thought was to go with a 32nd ply skin but I may be leaning toward a 1/16th or 32nd balsa skin with a carbon fibre overlay. The cost is higher using the CF but I may be able to use stronger but heavier materials in critical areas. I really would like the boat to last several seasons.:D

Paul.

[K.R.Joye]

I would go with 1/32 CF sheet for tunnel and non-contact areas. 1/16-3/32 for ride pads. Very expensive but less chance of shotgunning your packs and gear.

[AndyKunz]

Paul,

My AMSOIL hull www.montanadesign.com/boats used 1/32" ply for the bottom of the center section (to carry batt weight and motor mount), and 1/16" ply for ride pads. Except for the transoms, everything else was balsa with 1/2 ounce glass over it.

My 1/8 boat will be built a little stronger, as I had several holes punched in it by the water during flips. Dan Chase can vouch for that.

One thing I will be doing the same is building sealed compartments instead of of flotation blocks.

Andy

[Paul]

Hey Andy,

My 1/8 boat will be built a little stronger, as I had several holes punched in it by the water during flips.
That's my biggest worry, a flip or blow-over. It's an awful lot of boat to come crashing down.
One thing I will be doing the same is building sealed compartments instead of of flotation blocks.
No doubt a must. I did that on the 1/16th boat and talk about saving weight. I also plan on sealing the interior with sanding sealer rather than epoxy.

Paul.

[AndyKunz]

FWIW, my holes were punched in the non-trips. The deck was only damaged by Dennis driving over top of it.

Andy

[DJ Campbell]

Originally posted by Paul


If your looking for glass a H&M or MHZ hull will come in at half that weight.

I'll be keeping a close eye on the weight of my wood boat as I'm in the building process. My goal is 3 pounds which I really belive is attainable. We'll see though, it's a balancing act between weight and strength. My biggest concern is with 32 cells sitting on the bottom of the hull. If we attain that 50mph speed a blow-over could be the end of the boat.


I have never seen a better and lighter glass layup than the H&M Viper. I would guess their larger hydros are just as good.

I used sandwich construction for the hull bottoms on some carbon fiber shovelnoses. It is exponentially stiffer than just using the same amount of layers of cloth or plywood. Use either balsa or foam sheet for the core material. Thickness of the core material would be a judgement call.

[DJ Campbell]

Here are some material sources on the web. Some guys may already have sources too.

Here is a page that supplies aramid 120 (kevlar) at 1.8 oz per yard.

http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/category.php?bid=6&PHPSESSID=9809dd436df2b5d6fa8527d6fad0d81b


also here is a lightweight carbon source

https://www.cstsales.com/Carbon/index.htm

[Andrewg]

Paul

you are prepared to snipe and make snide references

Perhaps you could put up transparent testable benchmark information

I would like you to be polite and keep you emotional baggage to yourself

[AndyKunz]

Andrew,

If you'll pony up the Graupner motor, I have an SS1 to compare it to.

Andy

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

Here are some material sources on the web.
Hey Doug, thanks for the link to tapplastics. I didn't know about that one and I dig that aramid/carbon cloth they have! I'm thinking that's the stuff I need for this project.

Hey Andrew,
you are prepared to snipe and make snide references
Where? What are you reading?
Perhaps you could put up transparent testable benchmark information
What are you talking about? My recomendations come from REAL WORLD TESTING not from paper.
I take it you ran the 1817/2 on 24 cells - I agree its way too slow for that., but then a glance at the numbers tells you that - thats why they have specifications for motors isnt it?
This is a prime example of your BS, I'll bet you didn't know that the exact 1817/2 I was running holds a NAMBA RECORD IN S!
I would like you to be polite and keep you emotional baggage to yourself
Go scratch Andrew. Personally I think you've been in that Aussie sun way too long pal.

Paul.

[eddieh]

In the great words of Dennis Whitt settle down guys,
I don't think this is the place for for a steel cage match... I didn't see any sniping either, and I hope we don't go back to the 700 vs ss1 my weenie is bigger then yours challenge cause it is really getting old.. I really like this thread, don't want it see it locked up ,

everyone is entitled to post their opinions and findings, and we try to keep an even playing field, Andrew firm offer from Andy want to put the 700 debacle to rest please do so, end of story... but let's for crying out loud leave it out of this post... nobody said they were gonna run these bad boys on 700's...
Paul posted his findings and tests , you have posted yours, this thing will get more solid as actual testing results come in, till then.. lets just try to keep to the subject matter... sorry felt I had to say this it's my bad...
that said
I have the highest regards for both of you, I'm not pointing fingers but if someone doesn't want to reply to the other, that's their right, the bickering gets us nowhere..
I guess it is enuff said :(
regards ed

[Paul]

Hello Eddie,
my weenie is bigger then yours challenge
ROFLMAO, I ain't going there either.:D

Paul.

[Kmot]

sorry...

[eddieh]

ok ok bad analogy, but at least you guys are laughing..

can you guys get back to the subject matter now... :)

[JimClark]

Here is a link with some good pic's for scratch building
http://www.socallounge.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album03 it's 1/5th scale but the process is still the same.
Jim

[AndyKunz]

Well I know the problem for small ones - reply to some of the 100 spams I get each day.

All it takes is a pill, and no weights, and some little blue pill that's better than v1agra.

Andy

[Kmot]

sorry...

[eddieh]

Originally posted by Jim Clark
Here is a link with some good pic's for scratch building
Jim

Excellent sight Jim thanx!!! :)

[Andrewg]

Paul

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I take it you ran the 1817/2 on 24 cells - I agree its way too slow for that., but then a glance at the numbers tells you that - thats why they have specifications for motors isnt it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

""This is a prime example of your BS, I'll bet you didn't know that the exact 1817/2 I was running holds a NAMBA RECORD IN S!""

How about the year of the s record , the class and the speed and who set it?

Better researched options have gone well beyond it and could have at that time.

So of what relevance was your comment except as a rhetorical point scorer?


And this example is precisely what we are discussing isnt it? Electric power systems are able to be modelled to a high degree of accuracy.

For scoping a new project all professional organisations use analysis. Why? Because it saves money, time and effort. It ensures the first option is in the ball park and needs refinement not a total rework.

The 1817 I have been looking at is a 1.5 wind sensorless version - not the 2. Here is what Aveox sent me about a 4643/1.5

"The motor is essentially the same motor as the 1817. The 46xx is just an 18xx without a sensor. The cost for the 46xx is lower because we don't need to place a hall sensor board on it. You are looking at a cost of $485 for one ($385 for non custom winds)." This may benefit some people.

Bottom line is it took 5 minutes using my mind to select that motor rather than several $100's of dollars and hours in the field.

There is nothing like the field testing for refinement.

What I am trying to do is avoid dogmatism and help people avoid spending lots of money.

The method has proved reliable in estimating the performance of everything from micros (Trent Hare) to 24 cell riggers (Dick Crowe)?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you could put up transparent testable benchmark information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
""What are you talking about? My recomendations come from REAL WORLD TESTING not from paper. ?""

I wasnt referring to the origin of your information - I was saying SHARE the results as I do.

I put up data and you knock it. You put up claims so whow about specific relevant data on your testing of the 1817/2 eg hull, cells, how many, controller, props, etc??

I am at a loss to understand why u bag a scoping method which produces the same results off the sheet in 10 minutes as you acheive (the brands may be slightly different) after a relatively costly field selection.

Also it was used as the basis for my suggestion to you that a small brushless on a gearbox would work and which you used in your P-hydro and seemed so happy about...

Lets get down to working together to help other modelllers avoid costly dead ends

[Andrewg]

Andy

I have made a public offer to have the motors tested by Steve Neu - I supply Graupner 700BB 8.4v

happy to do that.

[Andrewg]

Update on Christian Lucas 1983 32 cell 10lb rigger and performance - seems relevant gven the advances made since

http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/feforums/showthread.php?s=&postid=77406#post77406

[B.K. Foster]

Let's keep matters of relevance to the thread and personal issues aside... If any of you have issue with another member attempt to resolve it in private... If that isn't successful then bring it to a moderator... If we cannot solve it, then we'll let Donnie settle the matter...

Bench racing aside... Let's act appropriately... Inasmuch our actions whether we like it or not are read and received by other board members, sometimes we leave an impression on another that we cannot undo, nor recover from... Let's not head down this road...

BTW, This is NOT intended to offend ANY member here, and IS a simple reminder - "CHILL OUT!!"...

Laters,
Bry

[Dan Chase]

OK, I picked my hull for my 1/8 Scale E Hydro. Besides the fact you have to admire a piston powered boat that won 3 races in 2003, this boat has everything I'm looking for in a scale Hydro. I was really torn since I wanted to do a detailed Allison motor, on the other hand I really like the modern capsule cockpits. I plan to scratch build the hull using Newtons plans. I just have to pick the livery, but I'm leaning towards the 99 Master Tire.

So what are you all building?

[eddieh]

Dan love the look of that boat!!!
best of both worlds, but I really love the older hydros, I just ordered the plans for the 1963 u-3 tahoe miss
i'll be scratch building the allison as well but probably making molds this time around
speed on brutha!!!!!!!
cheers eddie

[eddieh]

here is a pic of her, man I love scallops too!!!

[Dan Chase]

Yeah, the Tahoe Miss is a beauty! I spent Summers at Lake Tahoe as a kid, so it's always been near and dear to my heart. I even have a Tahoe Miss T shirt!

One problem, we will both be U-3! 8)

[eddieh]

Dan I guess if we are ever in the same race, we can do like they do for sportcars put a little masking tape number next to it when there together ieU-3a does that fit into the rules? I am a complete novice at racing so I don't know...

[Kmot]

What happens when two people build the same boat??

[eddieh]

tom good point, maybe Jim Clark, or Jim Lily will jump in, and see what they do in e-rcu, or we could check with impba..

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by Kmot
What happens when two people build the same boat??

That's why I always pack a 30-06 in my parts box! This is what happened last time I was in a race with a boat painted the same as mine!

http://hometown.aol.com/danimation/images/rigger.jpg

[eddieh]

that's a lot cleaner then I have seen your work bench good job !!!!

[Dan Chase]

All the scale clubs I know of keep a registry, first come first served. I'm not sure how they deal with it at the nationals, though.

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by Eddieh
that's a lot cleaner then I have seen your work bench good job !!!!

Your killing me, Eddie! FWIW: That was taken on a table in the pits at August Heats... NOT MY TABLE! ;)

[JimClark]

Cant be done in our club. the boats are registered each year and only one of each for our and RCU clubs. However if the boat also ran in another year it coule be registered. Usyally there is something slightly dofferent between the years.
jim

Originally posted by Eddieh
tom good point, maybe Jim Clark, or Jim Lily will jump in, and see what they do in e-rcu, or we could check with impba..

[Steven Vaccaro]

That's why I always pack a 30-06 in my parts box! This is what happened last time I was in a race with a boat painted the same as mine!

Dan your an animal! JK
I hate to see what happens to a guy that cuts you off!

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Kmot
What happens when two people build the same boat??

ASK DAN!!!

:D

It's really not a problem except that RCU doesn't let you do that.

Andy

[Paul]

Hey Guys,

84 Atlas Van Lines here. But I sure dig the look of the boat you picked Dan, very cool!

Paul.

[eddieh]

ok don't want anyone to give away any setup secrets or anything, and this is a theoretical question , and yes it has been whipped around a bit, but.... how many RPM will we need,
I myself have no delusions that I could have the fastest, I just don't want to build a 43" hydro hulled tug boat.. for power I am thinking ultra 1600 6 turn, or a big 800 size motor, the ultra on 20 cells will spin 24672, keeping it under that magic 25,000 number, 24 cells puts me close to 30,000, what size prop should I be looking at 45mm? less more?? in my thinking, I rather go less power and save the 2 plus pounds of batteries, is this thinking flawed?
I am really looking for help in calculating how much motor, if the motor pulls 60 amps (and survives) that theoretically would give me 1920 watts, (in) say 78% efficiency est that will leave me with about 1500, that would mean a little over 2 horsepower, is this enough?
and then after all that it gives me 55 seconds....is my fromulae all screwy... if the race was 1 mile i will need to average above 60 mph just to finish?

i do realize it won't draw 60 amps all the time or will it?

I am just trying to get a handle on this forgive the questions if they are naive, but I just don't know how to figure this stuff out...

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by Paul
Hey Guys,

84 Atlas Van Lines here. But I sure dig the look of the boat you picked Dan, very cool!

Paul.

:yeah: Hey Paul, I like your choice too! In fact the Blue Blaster was my first pick, but I have been building one for S Sport Hydro, so I thought I would do something different for my 1/8 scale. I started on the graphics already for my S Sport, let me know if you need some for your 1/8 scale.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Ok with all this discussion I am also thinking about building one of these monsters. How will it be decided on the particulars? Like cells. I would like to run cells other than sub c. Will this be permitted? If this going to be a spec class of an unlimited class? This will help me make my decision on whether or not to go for it.

[Steve Vasdekis]

If it goes to a spec class I'm out and this is why. Even though the technology excists, I don't think anyone on this side of the atlantic has figured out what a minimum power plant would be to make the race worth while. I say run whatever floats your boat, but the restrictions should only be on the size and the namba safety rules. Now I don't want to hear people taking about what's fair and what isn't (brushless/brushed..nicad/niMH/Li-Po), running this class is not about the masses, it's about the advancement of the sport!

[eddieh]

Steve I think you have a good point in my humbe opinion, i think the spec classes were set up after people new that a 700 would push a 24" hydro at a good clip, and I think the same for the LSO, I am a big fan of these and would probably be my choice to race in, but you are right, let the chips fall, I am building one cause I think it will be cool, I have some motors available, and I will put a box of 3300 from offshore steve on my Christmas list, I mean I think it would be pretty hard for a shovel to beat a modern boat anyway (unless Dick, er I mean Paul , was driving it LOL) but that is my choice , steve come on build one, it'll look great in the store!!!!
cheers eddie

[Dan Chase]

I agree with both Steve V. and Eddie. It should be an open motor class, cells I think were limited to 32 if we want to keep NAMBA insurance. I'm not sure if using full C cells or LiPoly would void our insurance, if it doesn't I'm all for that as well. Personally I can't afford a monster BL right now, but I do have a couple of Plett 50's. I'm much more interested in building a "scale" boat then a rocket anyway.

I really hope everyone will look close at the RCU, NAMBA & IMPBA scale rules and follow those for the hulls, I think we can bring a lot of the nitro scale guys over to electric if we do, plus we would have a built in set of rules instead of reinventing the wheel.

I REALLY don't think we need another "sport" scale class, we already have Q & S Sport Hydro. If it does go the "sport" route, I would still build, I already ordered the plans from Roger, but I doubt I would travel with it.

[Andrewg]

Eddie

SCALING (source for these methods was Astroflight however the methods are universal and last discussed on this site by Andy Kunz)

the ballpark scale figure for the 2002 Miss Budweiser are as follows

length 29' 10" -> 44.8"
beam 14' 6" -> 21.8"
mass 6200lb -> 12.1 lbs
output power 3500 -> 1822w
prop rpm 8433 -> 23853
prop diam 16" -> 51mm
prop pitch 28" -> 3.5" or 1.8 ratio
peak speed 180 -> 63.6
av speed (148 mph lap) -> 52.3

These dont allow for froude numbers nor does it take into account the current 1/8 rules allow variation (10% I think)

They suggest the power inputs on 32 cells for a motor of 85% efficiency at peak efficiency is 60 amps to make 1800w output

[Andrewg]

WHICH CELLS?

It is unlikely that many popular cells popular cells will be averaging 1.1v at 60amps - using discharge graphs from Battlepack

@ 30 Amps
1950FAUP 1.10v at 110s 1.0v at 212s cap=.92/1.8AH
RC2400/CP2400 1.10v at 130s 1.0v at 230s cap=1.1/1.9AH
N3000 1.10v at 230s 1.0v at 360s cap=1.9/3.0AH
GP3300 1.10v at 360s 1.0v at 420s cap=3.0/3.5AH

@40amps
2600 NiMH 1.10v at 192s 1.0v at 216s cap=1.6/1.8AH

@60amps
2600 NiMH 1.10v at 9s 1.0v at 66s cap=.08/.55AH

Like Battlepack, Magellans 35amp discharge graph, when compared to the 20A discharge rates show the N3000CR/CP 3600 holding voltage and capacity better than cells which had outperformed it at 20amps

The most important observation is that 20A discharge graphs may give very misleading indications vis-a-vis a cell's performance at high current levels.

However of the discharge graphs viewed the curves suggest the performance advantage of the c -sized N3000CR/CP3600 will be greater still at higher currents

A thing most will regard as positive as these cells are cheaper than most sub-c cells.

I have emailed Steve Hill suggesting 40, 50, 60 amp curves for larger capacity cells would be of assistance to us.

[Steve Vasdekis]

We don't need no stinkin data on the full size C cells. I have been using these cells for 3 years now(same ones) and there isn't a better cell. Here is a little test for you guys. Take an el lobo 3, hacker 8XL, schulze 105Wo, 12 sub C cells, and a 450/3 and see if you can finish 5 laps, I have done 7 laps with C cells with power to spare. Everything was about 130 degress.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Steve what is the exact model number of the "c" cells your using and who makes it? I tested some and didnt like them at all. But I'm sure yours are different.

[Turbosun]

MHZ Prices
FYI
Because of the very high Euro exchange rates and high shipping and custom-clearing costs (these hulls are big and need to be air freighted), these are not cheap.
I just cleared a small batch through customs at the airport of Miami: $400 for just 3 boats between paying in and out warehousing fees, posting a transfer bond, importation duties etc etc....This did not even include air fright costs from Germany...

But they are the best there is......epoxy glass....
1716 Nimbus: $645
1734 1/8 Bud : $595
1735 Roundnose: $480
A group order may reduce the price a bit...

[Andrewg]

Steve

Good on you. A simple declarative statement of opinion.

But u have been giving similar data for years. This is simply a source of information which quantifies what u have been saying and lifts it from anecdotal to objective and testable in a controlled way ie shows it may be applicable for everyone else.

There is a proviso...

At 35 amp rates N3000CR are the best of a broad range CP/RC2400, HV300, NiMH2200, P3000 etc - but they were not tested at 60 amps

At this stage the best 60 amp cells I have seen are NiMH 2600's.

From the graphs at battlepack, at 60amps these cells may suffer less supression of capacity than the N3000CR's (which as a design are very long in the tooth) - to the extent they have have slightly mroe capacity at the same voltage.

As well they are 26g less. ie nearly an ounce per cell so if they are otherwise equal they will have a significantly better power to weight ratio, which in practice helps with runtime.

Before you blow your hard earned it might be worth seeing what some battery testers come up with.

That why I am going to ask a friend to bench test some NiMH 2600's and CP3600s at 60 amps and see how we go and ask Steve Hill to post more precise data.

The other point to be made is that 60 amps the current for an output of 1800w - this sort of power may not be necessary. But it does seem it may be possible. Certainly, trying it in a boat that is less than optimum (ie will have huge current draw at stall through to peak power) and will probably stuff you cells

[Steve Vasdekis]

I have tried the 2600s and they may look go on paper, but in a boat they lack punch, the 3300s outperform them everytime. Here is the thing with the N3000Rs that i have which are just box stock cells with nothing done to them, if you just swap batteries out of a setup and nothing else, they perform the same as other cells. The area that makes them stand out is when you have a setup that is at the ragged edge with heat with sub c cells just by just switching to N3000R cells you now lower the heat and you move the fine line over more and it gives you room to prop or pitch up. Now as far as testing is concerned, Steve Hill has told me that he has tested the N3000R cells at 80 amps for 2 minutes and they survived, I don't know what the numbers were, as I think Steve didn't know either because the system could not chart that high, but if a cell can take that abuse and live it's OK in my book. Also, Steve tested one cell at 200 amps and it lived 5 seconds before it let go.

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Andrewg
peak speed 180 -> 63.6
av speed (148 mph lap) -> 52.3


Whiner Dave wouldn't like you giving him such low numbers ;)

Andy

[Andrewg]

Steve

I recieved and email back from Steve - he said he would put some numbers up

Just keep in mind what I am saying is not on paper its real discharges - except they are quantified - 60 amps on the bench will translate to 60 amps in a boat - the task is to measure what is really happening in the boat.

I have seen a 60 amp curve for 2600's they are very good - (perhaps only very good for a sub-c in fact they look great for a sub-c)

I have not seen a 60 amp curve for 3000's - this should be very interesting. Hence my qualification.

All of what I said yesterday was real - it is not simply paper

Also I am checking some other cells which look promising

This is looking very exciting


Andy

the figures were off budweisers site - you dont think they were foxing do you??? Budweiser??? never!!!!!!!!

[eddieh]

Andrew thanx for your info regarding baselines for power etc, is there a percentage to use if I don't plan on going 63, if I want say 40-43 do I take 2 thirds? I would really like to keep this at 18-24 cells, and use the ultra 1600 I have , or the mega competition motor, which by the way has the wounds wrapped with what looks like a kevlar thread
http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/feforums/attachment.php?s=&postid=61432 any thoughts
cheers eddie

[Andrewg]

Eddie

"is there a percentage to use if I don't plan on going 63, if I want say 40-43 do I take 2 thirds?"

For 60- 45 mph. In an ideal world the power drop is the cube root of the fraction 45/60times the riginal power - in reality you will need about 600w

There are two real world parameters which are worth keepng an eye on power:weight and absolute power. I will do it this way because anyone can follow the method and it relates directly to "real" quantifiable parameters of the boat and doesnt need a multi-analysis calculator.

You are looking for 120 watts /pound - that would be excellent give a nice sprightly performance 100 will be good.

The motor you have is a 6 turn - that means relatively low rpm and high reistance. Currents over about 30 amps are a problem. Boat motors are usually 4 or 3 turns to allow higher current levels. But you can make this work for you down the track.

I think this is the same motor as the Plett 355/25/6; so pletts figures suggest that at 84.8% efficiency and 30 amps you will have 700w at about 18500 rpm.

Good power but the rpms and need to keep amp draw down mean a high pitch prop relatively small diam prop

The power means i would aim for a 6lb boat on the line.

I would want to aim for hull weighing 3lb. Not too hard. I would choose a 28 foot unlimited to base my model on. I would exploit the 10% variance rule to the max (which could reduce the hull to about .81 of a strictly scale hull or 2.85lbs vs 3.5lbs).

Spend some time lightening the hardware - not to a silly degree just looking at ways to take out weight and retain rigidity - .150 flex cable/teflon in cf stuff tube, use thrust washer at the strut; etc - drill out brackets etc see if you can use a bulkhead as a motor mount, use 3mm fasteners.

The way we can mayke the low current work for you. WItha mere 30 amp draw 1950 AUP's at 38g each (vs 62 for sub c & 88 for c) will give you 3.5 minutes runtime.

That will get you boat on the start line at 7lbs with a light seal and paint job. The power to weight will be 100w/lb which will be good and speed should be able to get into the mid 40's with
the right prop.

Thats the rub - back of the envelope suggests it will be high pitch and relatively small diameter - think 1900 series - prop to get into the 40's at less than 50mm dia (got to keep the current low). But that will be something to work up to in your sea trials.

[eddieh]

Andrew Thank you for taking the time to explain all the numbers I appreciate it, and it makes me regret not really really paying attention in math LOL, I guess the best thing to do is to try it and see, make the motor mount adaptable... or perhaps buy a new armature for the ultra??
thanks for the lessons....
cheers eddie


oh and add afew more VB's (victoria bitters ) to the tab...:)

[Randy Naylor]

I like the idea that we all do a different boat, this is my pick...


http://www.unlimitedsdetroit.com/images/the70s/bud.jpg

[eddieh]

Randy Gotta say Man you got style!!!!!!!!!!! I love those hydros almost as much as shovels.... too bad Miller didn't make one then or at least rheingold.... LOL... ah miller tall boys and enteman chocolate donuts nectar and mana of the gods.... miller is also good on cherrios.... don't ask how i know!!!

but that motor is a rolls..... hmmmm
good luck randy and I really like that one!!!
cheers eddie

[Dan Chase]

Randy and I went to the Crackerbox Nationals and APBA Dist 11 outboard races today at Shadow Cliffs. There were a bunch of scale nitro racers there from Dist 9 including the scale chairman. We had some pretty good talks about the electric 1/8 scale hydros, and I saw more then a few raised eyebrows and crossing glances when we got to the theoretical performance of a FE 1/8 scale hydro. By the end of the day, a couple of the guys were even talking about a hull they had stored away that would probably be a good electric hull.

One thing I noted as I have noted before, these guys are passionate about SCALE. I really believe we can win a number of these guys to FE IF we coordinate are rules as closely as possible with the nitro rules regarding scale, including the drive dog rule. When I mentioned that we may be considering having the strut hung off the transom, their eye's rolled back and they lost all interest. Scale is scale guys, do we really need a huge "sport" hydro class?

[eddieh]

Dan, I am with you!! I like scale, I think that whoever comes up with the rules should make the points for scale worthwhile, it worked at our little club event, but this is up to you guys in my opinion as you said the other guys were really into scale, and I think you might even get some of the 1/10th e-rcu guys thinking it could be cool, either way,no matter what it's gonna be cool, but fast & scale is a little cooler, my 2 cents anyway

[Andrewg]

Eddie

your right just do it - In any event you are going to have yourself a very quick 24 cell boat. Realistically we can only aim for good power:weight ratios - dont get too hung up on it but they make targets which give real performance gains.

I think the setup - if t works with a high pitch prop will give you very fast, inexpensive long running boat.

Scale seems good there is a class there we are just using different motors and a few different angles here and there - but do you guys have regulations about minimum weigths

it looks to me like electrics may be able to claim they really are scale weight. If we can build in the ruggedness of the nitro boats we will be set like a gel!

BTW I now have two motors "in hand" to try a Hacker B50XL on a gearbox and a Robbe monster something - not sure of the numbers - that one will be collaborative.

Oh an of course a 700 bb but i think I will use the 9.6v......

[K.R.Joye]

STEVE i think your right on track using full C 3000's or even 3600's. Sounds like were aiming for 10 laps here. Does anyone have a problem allowing full C's for 1/8th? Has anyone done any runtime comparisons between the 3000 & 3600s full C cells? Charts are charts real numbers is what i'm looking for? If you get 30 secs to a min more runtime the 3600's may be worth it.

I've got my setup pretty well set now. Should have the boat sometime next month.

43" Scale Pickle Fork Hydro (3 3/4 pd composite hull)

800GR`XL' motor (24 cell)

R/C Hydros 90 amp esc

(24) full C 3000/3600's

MACH 5 custom hardware Billet rudder(.150 cable)

Graupner 50MM CF prop

[Steven Vaccaro]

Which way will these boats run around the coarse?

[K.R.Joye]

Steven thats a real good question? The nitro 1/8s run CCW and their cockpits are offset accordingly. If were sticking to scale maybe we should run CCW. This way we can use light layup nitro hull designs it will make easier for more racers to get envolved in the class.

[AndyKunz]

The RIGHT way - RIGHT! Just like RCU!

Andy

[Steven Vaccaro]

Most larger brushed drill motors run advance so running in the opposite direction could pose a problem.

[eddieh]

Originally posted by Pagemaster
Most larger brushed drill motors run advance so running in the opposite direction could pose a problem.

Personally I like the idea of exactly like rcu, but will running the opposite way won't prop selection be limited? just a thought.

[AndyKunz]

RCU runs the boats in the direction that gives better prop selection. The left-turners (E-RCU and CT) have prop selection problems.

Andy

[eddieh]

Thanks Andy, got a bit confused.... :)

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by K.R.Joye
Steven thats a real good question? The nitro 1/8s run CCW and their cockpits are offset accordingly. If were sticking to scale maybe we should run CCW. This way we can use light layup nitro hull designs it will make easier for more racers to get envolved in the class.

Clocks run backwards at GM?

Andy

[Paul]

Hello Guys,

Batteries, use a voltage limit of 38.4 (32 cells). Battery choice at the modelers discretion. Lipo's will set you back 800.00 for the correct setup but hey if your game.:D Think about it, 8400mah at 50 amps on tap, you could have some fun there.

I have tried the 2600s and they may look go on paper, but in a boat they lack punch, the 3300s outperform them everytime.

I might disagree with you there Steve, the 2600's where in all my P boats at Ohio and I think they where pulling pretty good.

Hey Dan, I also have a 36" and a 1/16th scale Atlas as well. Definitely a cool boat.

Paul.

[Kmot]

I always wondered why you guys turned right when all other forms of motorsport turn left! :rolleyes:

[Randy Naylor]

Originally posted by Kmot
I always wondered why you guys turned right when all other forms of motorsport turn left! :rolleyes:

It is because the motors we use turn counter clock wise. So almost all the props were made turning counter clockwise and it is the easiest direction to turn for us due to this.

[eddieh]

Originally posted by Andrewg

These dont allow for froude numbers

ok I am not proud, I had to look this up, I might be the only one who didn't know this but just in case, here is a good explanation and it really makes sense now!! thanks
http://freespace.virgin.net/mark.davidson3/OSC272/Mix1/froude.html

[JimClark]

RCU runs clockwise. It is only the 1/10th electric clubs (E_RCU and Classic Thunder) that run CCW.
Jim

Originally posted by K.R.Joye
Steven thats a real good question? The nitro 1/8s run CCW and their cockpits are offset accordingly. If were sticking to scale maybe we should run CCW. This way we can use light layup nitro hull designs it will make easier for more racers to get envolved in the class.

[AndyKunz]

I'm surprised the guy didn't mention it, but it's also the reason why rapidly flowing rivers have their centers higher than the shores without flooding.

It's also why people don't get out of a raging river, and end up dead. If they swim across the current, the different current speeds over the length of their body turn them to facing upstream, and they tire before reaching the shore.

If you're ever caught in a fast-moving water, attempt to swim downstream AND toward the shore. You'll have a better chance of making it out alive.

Brian V might have input on riptides. They do the same sort of thing but the shoreline is usually only "upstream" and the most important thing becomes getting out of the current.

Andy

[Zippifried]

Hey Guys,

Ever hear of "Odyssey of the Mind"? A team from my grade school competed in it, all this talk of light-but-strong reminded me of it. Here's some interesting reading stuff I found on the web:

From: http://www.blaine-slplife.com/2003/may/9di.html

"In regionals, she built a structure out of balsa wood that weighed 18 grams and supported 302 pounds in Olympic weights. In finals, structures can hold up to 1,000 pounds, she said."

From: http://www.rdale.k12.mn.us/tlc/archive/year95-96/year95_96.html

"Odyssey of the Mind (OM) is a creative problem solving competition held yearly with winning teams ultimately going on to state and world competitions. The Crunch! problem involves building a structure of balsa wood and glue which weighs no more than 18 grams and must hold as much weight as possible. All structures were stressed with increasing loads of 50, 100, 150 and 200 pounds while having the sides stressed by impacts of billiard balls. The TLC team's structure held 120 pounds before shattering into dozens of little pieces. This feat qualified the team to go to the State OM competition at Armstrong High School on Saturday, April 13th." <-- These were 5th and 6th graders!!!

The structures are typically rectangular, a couple inches across, and somewhere around 7" to 8" tall, constructed of 1/8th inch square balsa sticks.

I tried to find pictures of structures, but haven't found any yet.

Is there something being missed with hull construction? LOL

Thought this might add something to the thread.

Take Care,
Paul

[Kmot]

Wow! 8)

Yeah, but those little 5th and 6th grade whippersnapppers have Cray Supercomputers at their disposal, LOL! j/k

[froggy]

Message for Dan Chase. Dan if your are going scale with your cooper hull (Correct me if i am mistaken) but i don't belive the 02 03 cooper hull that won 3 races this year ever ran as the Master Tire. Don't mean to start a fuss but scale should be scale ya know. Think i might start drawing up some plans for the older cooper hull, the 88 one.

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by froggy
Message for Dan Chase. Dan if your are going scale with your cooper hull (Correct me if i am mistaken) but i don't belive the 02 03 cooper hull that won 3 races this year ever ran as the Master Tire. Don't mean to start a fuss but scale should be scale ya know. Think i might start drawing up some plans for the older cooper hull, the 88 one.

Hi Dale,

Your right, but I'm building either the '99 Master Tire or the early 2000 Vacationvile before it was painted all red. I want to keep the silver cowl and edging. It's really just a matter of deciding on the sponsor stickers, but I'm leaning more toward the Master Tire.

I thought about doing the '03 San Diego U-3 Llumar, but I just didn't care for (another) red boat! ;)

I have been trying to find information on the 2002-03 U-3, do you know if it's the same hull built in '97? I have read that it was a new hull, but it looks more evolutionary then new from the pictures I have seen.

Your right, scale is SCALE! :yeah:

[Andrewg]

Ken

the discharges mapped on the charts are real and accurate.

the times from running a boat are real but innacurate

the difference is with a charted plot you know there are no intervening variables - it is the performance of the cell

running cells with a different
* hull
* motor
* driveline
* prop
* controller
* different water conditions

introduces a minimum of 6 variables which WILL affect the results

once you know the approximate runtime you want - you can calculate the amp draw you need - but you can start there any way if you think about the power you need or are prepared to put up with - the thing is to find cells which work best at those amp levels.

[K.R.Joye]

You make some real good points Andrew. Thanks for your input.

Talked to Mr Fine yesturday regarding the 3600 full C verse 3000 full C. He said the chemistry in the cells are different, hes tested the 3600's they have a weaker chemistry. He said for higher amp draw endurance racing stick with the 3000's (full C). I run 20 full c's in my twin boat and am fairly confident i'll get the runtime needed with the setup i have planned. :D

[Steve Vasdekis]

Ken, I have consistantly put in 3.2-3.3 amps into my 3000 C cells. The word on the 3600 is that they take about 3.3 amps so the cells are about equal.

[Paul]

Hey Guys,

For run time I'm planning on no more than 2 minutes to finish 10 laps. Actually I would love to target 1:45 for the 10 laps, hopefully that's not too tall an order.

Paul.

[AndyKunz]

What?!?! A piddly 30 MPH average?

:D

Andy

[Paul]

Hello Andy,
What?!?! A piddly 30 MPH average?
Well, I wanted to run 10 laps in under 60 seconds but......:p

Paul.

[AndyKunz]

Running on a nitro course would certainly help the heat time, Paul.

Andy

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by AndyKunz
Running on a nitro course would certainly help the heat time, Paul.

Andy

Randy and I have already talked about that one, you know are layout at Kaiser Cove, Andy. We will run the 1/8 scale on the Nitro Course for 6 laps. Me thinks a FE course is going to get really small really fast with a handful of 1/8 scalers!!! 8)

[eddieh]

can someone post a sketch or a link to what the race courses should like like or proposed for the uninitated like myself... thanx

[eddieh]

oh and has it been set in stone the direction of travel which turns right or left, so if we are building or working on plans we can move along until other things are hammered out, at least for rear sponson doubling etc....

[Dan Chase]

Eddie, the center course is the NAMBA FE Course. I think we should stick to clockwise myself, NAMBA/RCU/IMPBA all do.

[AndyKunz]

Originally posted by Dan Chase
Randy and I have already talked about that one, you know are layout at Kaiser Cove, Andy. We will run the 1/8 scale on the Nitro Course for 6 laps. Me thinks a FE course is going to get really small really fast with a handful of 1/8 scalers!!! 8)

A nitro course would have helped on Q & S Sport as well.

Andy

[Dan Chase]

Originally posted by AndyKunz
A nitro course would have helped on Q & S Sport as well.

Andy

Agreed! If we get more high cell count boats next year, I wouldn't mind running a few classes on the nitro course.