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Other Boating Interests This board is for some of you that are interested in other types of boating. Scale, Sail, Gas or Nitro. Feel free to ask questions here.

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  #1  
Old 11-03-2009, 09:15 PM
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COX Reed Valve power

Hello all, for years I have been experimenting with COX .049" reed valve engines. This Winter, I plan on building a couple of very small hulls; (14"-16")designed around that powerplant... to be specific; a Babe Bee .049" conversion; utilizing "Ralph Cooney" (marketed by ACE R/C) throttle control. I have "dry run" several engines for tuning purposes, and will use a 30% nitro fuel blend, with the std. glowhead equipped with a heatsink, and fuel tank bypassed to accept a larger capacity .50 oz.+ tank. (I'll try to attach photo of my engine) These will be purely experimental models; with the emphasis on fun... For those not familiar with the reed valve throttle concept... it is merely a pc. of .062" rigid (music)wire, approx. 1.5"L. ground on one end to a needle profile. The COX .049" Babe Bee has an integral fuel-tank-backplate-radial mount; which has an air intake port below the fuel needle and just behind the reed valve, for normal W.O.T. operation. The fore-mentioned air intake port in the backplate has a tiny mesh screen (to keepout dirt/debris) pressed into it. This screen can be removed to expose the venturi, which has an approx. bore of .0635"... allowing a fabricated "needle" of desired taper, to pass through and effectively meter the air/fuel mixture. I have acheived idle speeds well below 1000 rpm (Tach verified) using this technique; without the help of a glow driver (high nitro fuel helps...) I am trying to develop a "clutch" which would aid to the throttle control of "any" internal combustion engine. For the model boat... I wonder if anyone has thought of an output shaft; consisting of a short s.s.tube, threaded for the crankshaft on one end... and stuffed on the other; with 3 spring steel (music wire) of appropriate size to make up the inner tube dia. epoxied/soldered in place to fit into a short "clutch bell" tube... if you will... coupled to the prop shaft....(stay with me here...) As motor RPM increases.... the stuffed output shaft wires/rods begin to expand (swell) and grip the I.D. of the "clutch bell" tube on the prop shaft... and there "could" be an effectively throttled glow powered model. Please post comments on my ideas... even if you think I'm deranged.... I won't be offended... my wife would agree with you... C.P.
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:37 PM
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Is that a nitro your workin on?????? wow, I don't know a thing about nitro's
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Old 11-04-2009, 02:53 PM
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I'm familiar with the .049 Cox reed valve engine. I have had many of them over the years. I even had one in a small deep v. I ran it solid coupled with flywheel to output shaft. That is the way I would do your little project. You do know that these little engines can be tempermental in a boat application. I don't want to discourage you, but I'd put a 05 electric motor in a little boat. Then there is no headach of trying to get the little beat going. Or if you insist on putting the little Cox engine in a boat, I'd go for a small swamp buggy. The engine would be mounted high out of the water with an airplane prop.
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Old 11-05-2009, 05:22 PM
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Hey Chuckc... Yea; it's a nitro project. I have skads of COX .049 motors and parts from 1/2A cl. control line flying I've done over the years. I do have an electric V-hull (Dumas "Short Stuff" model) which I built about 15 years ago. It's a mahogony/birch ply built-up kit that I customized for a Graupner Multi-Speed Mono direct drive Speed 600 stock motor. I had to make custom 7.2v. and 8.4v sub-c packs which "saddle" the motor... IE: 3/3 and 3/1/3 arrangement. Probably not the best arrangement, but when I got it all together and added trim tabs; it really boogied (for a particularly "heavy" little wooden boat) I'm guessing somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-20 mph. (I'm rambling...sorry) I'll try to dig up a photo. Thanks for the reply. C.P.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:56 AM
Garry Finlay Garry Finlay is offline
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That should work OK. I’ve run the TeeDee version in tethered boats a few (quite a few) years ago. This was fun. The reed version should be fine. Just start out with a rich mixture at first. Be careful of going lean as the fuel drains.

How is old Ralph? He and I did a few things together when we were into -A pylon racing. – But that was a few (quite a few) years ago.

Garry
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Old 11-17-2009, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstolz View Post
I'm familiar with the .049 Cox reed valve engine. I have had many of them over the years. I even had one in a small deep v. I ran it solid coupled with flywheel to output shaft. That is the way I would do your little project. You do know that these little engines can be tempermental in a boat application. I don't want to discourage you, but I'd put a 05 electric motor in a little boat. Then there is no headach of trying to get the little beat going. Or if you insist on putting the little Cox engine in a boat, I'd go for a small swamp buggy. The engine would be mounted high out of the water with an airplane prop.
Hi Jay, Thank you for your input RE: the "nitro" motor. I do know know how the little engines can be... I have however; had lot's of experience with them; right down to complete disassembly, including piston/rod resetting. I guess the allure for me is the power to weight ratio advantage that the glow engines enjoy; over the electrics... but like "you" say; electrics are "plug and play"... which has it's own advantages for modelers who aren't familiar with the operation/tuning of, or don't like I/C powerplants. (I've been pricing brushless/LI-PO system configurations lately... hehe... don't tell my wife...) I hope you have something cool you're working on this winter. I'll certainly stay tuned! Thanks again, C.P.
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Garry Finlay View Post
That should work OK. Ive run the TeeDee version in tethered boats a few (quite a few) years ago. This was fun. The reed version should be fine. Just start out with a rich mixture at first. Be careful of going lean as the fuel drains.

How is old Ralph? He and I did a few things together when we were into -A pylon racing. But that was a few (quite a few) years ago.

Garry
Hey Garry, Thanks a lot for the reply. I don't have any TeeDee's... but one aspect of the reed valve induction engines that can be advantageous is that; like an electric motor, they will run equally well in either direction. This is not particularly useful in a marine application... but for multi-engine aircraft; "P" factor can be effectively eliminated by running counter-rotating props.

One plan I have for the single reed valve marine engine application... is to throttle it; using a tiny nano servo and same for rudder, running a BEC receiver with a 6V. lithium photo battery for power; keeping weight down to a minimum. I designed an outrigger made from foam/foamboard with 3/16" dia. tubular AL. booms to support the sponsons, and I'm undecided as to whether to use a cable or music wire drive. Starting prop will be a 1.0" dia. Dumas; designed for the .049" engine. I'll upload photos of the rigger progress soon.

I don't know a "Ralph"... but I'll bet that the 1/2A pylon racing that you and he did, was very cool!!! C.P.
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Old 11-19-2009, 04:31 AM
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You can take a 051 and push a small rigger past 30mph with them. Go to Dumas store and order there 1/2A hardware kit. It comes with a fly wheel which is a must, drive shaft prop rudder everything to set up a 1/2A motor to function use castor oil in your mix(higher heat nukes synthetic oil when ran in boats) and water cool the head by winding small aluminum tube starting above the exhaust ports. I have run 049, 051, 074 cox motors in mono's and riggers. Since 1977. Since then servo's are smaller rx and batts smaller lighter allowing more speed an lighter hulls. Best wishes.
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Old 11-19-2009, 04:35 AM
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Here is one of mine showing the dumas 1/2A fly wheel.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Amp Eater View Post
You can take a 051 and push a small rigger past 30mph with them. Go to Dumas store and order there 1/2A hardware kit. It comes with a fly wheel which is a must, drive shaft prop rudder everything to set up a 1/2A motor to function use castor oil in your mix(higher heat nukes synthetic oil when ran in boats) and water cool the head by winding small aluminum tube starting above the exhaust ports. I have run 049, 051, 074 cox motors in mono's and riggers. Since 1977. Since then servo's are smaller rx and batts smaller lighter allowing more speed an lighter hulls. Best wishes.
Thanks so much for the interest! I could not access the forums for weeks... don't know why... great to be back! I don't own any rotary valve 1/2A engines... but have tinkered endlessly with my reed valve motors (I have over 20 of them... and TONS of parts!) Thanks for posting the photo showing your coiled tubing heatsink. I have thought about trying that; as opposed to the stock heatsink. Does K&S AL tubing bend without kinking when forming it? What O.D. size would you use for .049" glowhead? I generally run Sig Champion "35" (%nitro) which has castor. (thanks for the tip... castor is the best if you value your motors) Servos (2) will be "Great Planes" "Electrifly ES50 NANO" servos @ 0.32 oz. (9g) ea. powered by a single 6V lithium "N" cell. 2nd servo is for throttle.... yes; you can throttle a "Babe Bee" with a needle through the tank backplate (Ace RC used to sell them "Ralph Cooney" designed) merely a 1.5"L pc. of .062" dia. music wire ground to a needle profile on one end... popping the screen out of the Babe Bee's tank backplate exposes the venturi tube to the reed, which has an i.d. of approx. .0595". The "stock" (Cox) needle meters the fuel as normal from the tank backplate nipple fitting... and the secondary servo-actuated (Ace) needle meters the air/fuel mix, to quite effectively throttle the little motor from w.o.t. down to well under 3000 rpm. I should express that this set-up is only for Cox "Babe Bee" style engines, if using this throttle addition/modification. The "prod." engine cannot be throttled in this way. I actually drill-out the Babe Bee's tank, install a sm. rubber grommet and run fuel line from the backplate's nipple, out through the grommet; allowing the use of a larger capacity fuel tank (0.5/1.0 oz.)
Drive (throttled or not...) I'm undecided about. The Dumas set-up for .049 I have... I "want" a thrustline parallel with the hull; which I can't get with "that" set-up. I've been researching "music wire" drives... but I also want something I can adjust/tune easily... along with replace easily; when the need arises.
Outrigger style hull is comprised of 3/16" foamboard sides, .015" styrene bottom, channeled 3mil "sintra" (PVC) floorboard, 6mil sintra transom, foam sponsons sheeted w/.064" birch ply and 1/4" AL tubular booms.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:44 PM
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Here is one of mine showing the dumas 1/2A fly wheel.
I made custom flywheels and need to test them (see my engine photo) that photo also shows a custom muffler I designed, which works very well with both noise reduction and routing exhaust wastes away from the model.

Thanks again "AMP eater" C.P.
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  #12  
Old 12-09-2009, 07:38 PM
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rigger

Holy Cow Cox! Just stumbled on your thread. Thanks for keeping the old motors alive. I have been in this hobby for 40+ years and my fondest memories still are Cox,Fox,CL, Sterling, Silkspan, clear dope, profile airplanes, etc..My first venture in to RC was a pulse system. Never worked really well and buried alot of airplanes.

In to FE boats these days. I have a Renegade rigger , well used, but still functional that I will be happy to send you to further the cause, no cost, if you provide shipping info.
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Old 12-10-2009, 11:35 PM
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Hey all the dumas fly wheels weigh around 1 and 1/2 oz to avoid over rev. The ball socket piston set up will loosen dramatically if you choose to use that rubber starter insert. The aluminum tube went around easy enough appears to be about a 2mm ID. Here's some pics of a rigger drive line. It use's oilet bearings pressed in thick walled aluminum tube. The isolation mount will have the nylon bolts going through rubber tube thru the side walls of the tub.
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File Type: jpg Cox Engine mount rigger.jpg (48.6 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg oilet bearings rigger drive in aluminum.jpg (50.0 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg 049 rigger blue print.jpg (46.2 KB, 23 views)
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Old 12-10-2009, 11:49 PM
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Also if you uncover the engine and watch through the exhaust port if the piston skirt raises a hair above the exhaust. This was done on purpose to draw in fresh air into the crank case for the next compression. You can make a exhaust ring or buy one online there still around to throttle the engine.
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Old 12-11-2009, 09:36 AM
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Keep that new rigger LIGHT, LIGHT, LIGHT> Once upon a time ..... I build a few small riggers for small motors. I used balsa laminated with 1/64th ply. Amazingly strong and light.
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Old 12-11-2009, 09:47 AM
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Back in the day, I used to fly Cox powered small ACE models airplanes. Not satisfied with the power of a standard .049, I opted for the TD .051 motor. This worked well, but I still wanted more, so I purchased a head and needle valve from a company that I don't think is in business any longer called 'Kustom Kraftsmanship'...

The head used a standard glow plug and increased compression, and the needle valve was a fine-thread design... 4-turns equaled one of the standard valve.

I then used a "bladder" fuel system, which involves using surgical tubing that is sealed at one end. You inject the fuel into it with a syringe, which causes it to blow up under the pressure... you pinch off the fuel like with foreceps while getting the motor started (prime motor with fuel, first)... once the motor fired, you would release the forceps and PRESTO! Fuel Injection!!

Would allow me to fly the planes in ANY position and do some amazing maneauvers... Unbelievable power and the motor would run great... you could really dial it in!
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Old 12-13-2009, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Finlay View Post
That should work OK. I’ve run the TeeDee version in tethered boats a few (quite a few) years ago. This was fun. The reed version should be fine. Just start out with a rich mixture at first. Be careful of going lean as the fuel drains.

How is old Ralph? He and I did a few things together when we were into -A pylon racing. – But that was a few (quite a few) years ago.

Garry
Hey Garry, How fast was your tether boats going? I know you can time the laps based on line length for mph.
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:31 PM
Garry Finlay Garry Finlay is offline
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I have no idea. Back then I was doing good to get 15MPH. But, to a 12 yr old, it looked more like 65 to me !!!

Garry
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:23 PM
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I love the .049 stuff! I'm sure some of you have already been to this site, but I will post it anyways...good .049(and others sm. motors)parts site.

=> http://www.mecoa.com/index.htm




Also, here is a pic of the upgrade .049 heads that use standard glow plugs...
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File Type: jpg grp-600.jpg (32.7 KB, 5 views)
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Amp Eater View Post
Hey all the dumas fly wheels weigh around 1 and 1/2 oz to avoid over rev. The ball socket piston set up will loosen dramatically if you choose to use that rubber starter insert. The aluminum tube went around easy enough appears to be about a 2mm ID. Here's some pics of a rigger drive line. It use's oilet bearings pressed in thick walled aluminum tube. The isolation mount will have the nylon bolts going through rubber tube thru the side walls of the tub.
Hey Amp Eater, Thanks for your input on this .049 reed rigger project. All this info is helping me quite a bit with design considerations. I "do" have a cylinder/sleeve set for exhaust throttle... I should put a motor together and see how repsonsive it is. I'm concerned about using an exhaust throttle with reed valve induction. The "Ralph Cooney" needle; designed for the BabeBee/GoldenBee, works surprisingly well. It would also weigh less than a sleeve. Have you experimented with any flex drives for .049's i.e. music wire/stranded cable? I have stranded stainless cable in various o.d.'s ranging from .030" to .062". From what I've read, the "twist" of the stands is key... understandably; favoring a "compressing" twist on load-up. Would this be correct? I should add... that I can't afford to spend too much $$ on hdwe. right now... but I am fairly handy with shop tools and precision measuring instruments. Thanks for any further info you can provide. C.P.
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